Arm Badge

[Guest]

Can anyone identify this arm badge from a WW1 soldiers group photo?

[Joe Sweeney]

Ray,

Looks like a 1st Class Scout Badge.

Joe Sweeney

[Raster Scanning]

I agree, definately 1st Class Scout, normal scouts did not have the lower cross on the badge.

John.

[Muerrisch]

The first army reference for a badge for military scouts is AO19 of 1905, and the replies above are correct. Baden Powell invented the badge to represent N pointer on compass. The badge, and the one for the [junior] company scouts, without bar, was made in brass or worsted. Under active service the worsted was preferred. An alternative badge was produced in India, S in a yiny complete wreath, again in worsted or brass. I have a photo of a Scout Officer in the war, who has the simple fleur-de-lys with detachable scroll beneath.

Scouts, in open warfare, had the most arduous and dangerous of tasks, and were probably the most highly trained and regarded of soldiers, recruited from poachers, ghillies and the like. The establishment varied, and, as the war went into the trenches, scouts and observers and snipers tended to be swept together under the Intelligence Officer or sometimes called Scouting Officer and sometimes Observer Officer and sometimes Sniping Officer.

Badges abolished ACI 396 of 1921, but in India in 1929 a scouts armband, green was re-introduced.

A REQUEST IN EXCHANGE FOR THE ABOVE; PLEASE CAN THE GROUP BE PUT ON SITE FOR MY COLLECTION?

[Guest]

Well that was a big surprise! I have no idea who the soldiers are in this group - I will see whether I can get a good scan of the cap badge later. I thought at first you were pulling my leg about Scouts . Thanks to you all and here's the group.

[Muerrisch]

Somebody called Langley wrote a book on British Army Proficiency badges about 20 years ago. Out of print, unobtainable, and Langley himself is down to three copies only. Not for sale.

BUT. I looked in my amended copy and found annotations which demonstrate that the India pattern 'S in Wreath' Scouts badge was for Infantry only [Cavalry in India used the proper badges], existed as early as 1902, and the India badge was actually worn/issued on the Western Front. In my original posting, I didn't look to see what I had noted down. Oh, and Edmund Blunden RSx. wrote that he commanded Scouts, Snipers and Observers.

Photos of either badge in wear are always welcome.

[Guest]

Would these scouts be officers, NCOs or privates? By the way the photo I have is on a blank postcard - I don't think any of the three men are related to me. I'm not sure where it came from originally.

Regards,

Ray Hooper

[Muerrisch]

Infantry Training 1914 calls for one NCO and 4 men to be trained as scouts in each of the companies. It does not mention a higher echelon for the battalion. However, earlier and later references imply a substantially larger number: in 1911, 9 NCO and 64 men in the battalion of whom 1 NCO and 16 men to be 1st class as battalion scouts, and, in 1917, one officer, one sgt or cpl and 20 privates for the battalion. As the scouts were primarily rifle-and-bayonet men, their numbers, if you could train them, would rise and fall according to the strategic situation.

[Guest]

The group that I posted is East Surreys and they are all scouts first class. The soldier in the middle is possibly my uncle Pte: Edward Ernest Hooper. I noticed that in the left hand bottom corner is a number 443 which presumably is identification number for the photographer.