jdajd Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 Actually slighty different though since its about a battery, which usually refers to artillery? Any rumors of Germans chained to artillery? I can see this one as a little more believable since if the horses that transported the guns were killed the men would probably have to limber themselves up to move them back. Just a hypothesis. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 That quote came up in post #126 too. As the author worked in Mary Borden Turner's hospital, which was near Dunkirk in 1915, I'm not sure where her French or Belgian patients would have had an opportunity to encounter a German battery, whether artillery or MG, at close quarters, as there was very little offensive action in the coastal sector at that time and even less direct contact in the inundated sector further inland. Interesting, nevertheless, as the anecdote demonstrates that the myth existed in the French and/or Belgian army too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 I can't, for the life of me, see what all the fuss is about. Men chained to machine guns? I have seen horses chained to 18 pounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 Actually slighty different though since its about a battery, which usually refers to artillery? Any rumors of Germans chained to artillery? I can see this one as a little more believable since if the horses that transported the guns were killed the men would probably have to limber themselves up to move them back. Just a hypothesis. Jon The British army certainly had men tied to artillery but not in the front line. The whole notion of chaining men to a weapon or a post is an absolute nonsense and only requires a second's thought to expose that. What would you do if you were chained to a gun and everybody else ran away? I would be waving every piece of white cloth I could lay my hands on. What purpose would it serve to chain a man to a gun? What would make him fire it? The whole crew need to be chained and the same goes for an artillery piece. Do you chain the observer to his post as well? Artillerymen and machinegunners and common or garden riflemen on all sides, showed that they did not need to be co-erced into doing their duty and exceeding it by far. If a gun needed manhandling there were plenty of men who did that because it was their duty. I can think of nothing more calculated to destroy a unit's morale than the knowledge that one of their comrades had been chained or had had to be chained to his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 Yaaaawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 From Battle in the Champagne " As I have already mentioned (p. 135) when I was in Alsace the French officers told me that they found in certain of the captured positions German soldiers chained to their machine guns. There again the inherent improbability of the incident leads one to question its truth. From what I have seen of the German soldier, I should say that he was the last man in the world who had to be chained to his gun in order to make him fight. Yet in this war so many wildly improbable, wholly incredible things have actually occurred that one is not justified in denying the truth of an assertion merely because it sounds unlikely. " Perhaps one did so as an act of bravado? No i don't have any evidence Mike EDIT Have just gone back to the start of this thread, read some of the posts and will ' shut my geggie ' unless find something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 ... the inherent improbability of the incident leads one to question its truth. From what I have seen of the German soldier, I should say that he was the last man in the world who had to be chained to his gun in order to make him fight. As I said a long time ago ... The chain that bound a German machine-gunner to his weapon was in his head, not around his body, and if his corpse was found still attached to his gun, it could be readily detached by releasing his carrying harness ... As regards the 'bravado' argument, I could well believe that some machine-gunner might once have 'enacted the myth' out of bravado, but that would require knowledge that the enemy believed that German gunners were chained, and I can find no evidence of that. German reports on the interrogation of prisoners often recorded things that prisoners 'believed' - either as trench myths or from official propaganda - but 'We know that your machine-gunners are chained to their guns' is not one I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 Why does this topic keep resurrecting itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 From a more practical pov,more than 1 VC/DCM had been earned by Allied troops taking out MG'08 posts. If bloke was chained to it,blown/shot to b*ggery,did the reserve gunner carry a cutter or hacksaw that could unchain the bloody corpse of his ex colleague so that he could take over the duck shoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 3 September , 2010 Share Posted 3 September , 2010 Because the world is round, Pete, and because the premise is not utterly impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 4 September , 2010 Share Posted 4 September , 2010 "Take these chains from my gun and set me free, Be as kind to my gun as you can be. All my faith in you is gone, but the heartache lingers on ... Take these chains from my gun and set me free ... " Orchestra swells to grand, flourishing finish then disc continues to rotate, clicking, until someone remembers to lift the needle off - in this case not even 90 years later. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 4 September , 2010 Share Posted 4 September , 2010 Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinclift Posted 5 September , 2010 Share Posted 5 September , 2010 I concur Egbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 5 September , 2010 Share Posted 5 September , 2010 I agree, of course, but like the women snipers of Gallipoli I fear this myth will continue to re-surface whenever people come across anecdotes or vaguely ambiguous photographs. It's a shame that there isn't a German equivalent of Coppard's 'With a Machine-Gun to Cambrai', in which a German machine-gunner might have written "We p&ssed ourselves laughing when we found out that the Tommies thought our officers chained us to our guns, and every now and again some silly b&gger would actually do it, just to 'play the hard man' to the new recruits" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 5 September , 2010 Share Posted 5 September , 2010 I agree, of course, but like the women snipers of Gallipoli I fear this myth will continue to re-surface whenever people come across anecdotes or vaguely ambiguous photographs. It's a shame that there isn't a German equivalent of Coppard's 'With a Machine-Gun to Cambrai', in which a German machine-gunner might have written "We p&ssed ourselves laughing when we found out that the Tommies thought our officers chained us to our guns, and every now and again some silly b&gger would actually do it, just to 'play the hard man' to the new recruits" ... So what you are saying is that that poor woman in Gallipoli was chained to her rifle? I never knew that. Must make a note. Is there a photo of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S. Posted 5 October , 2010 Share Posted 5 October , 2010 In case anyone is interested... http://books.google.ca/books?id=ioHMaObHMdwC&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=%22German+chained+to%22&source=bl&ots=QEBLSVD9xD&sig=4ruTVFuJz-VH9_-V3_D5tGicQWE&hl=en&ei=4tGqTPmaOcSblge78OTlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22German%20chained%20to%22&f=false http://books.google.ca/books?id=OClz6xxwgCUC&pg=PA56&dq=%22Germans+chained+to%22&hl=en&ei=H9OqTJuzL8L_lgfzkYCNCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Germans%20chained%20to%22&f=false http://books.google.ca/books?id=2EcfqQ-E0BQC&pg=PA189&dq=%22Germans+chained+to%22&hl=en&ei=H9OqTJuzL8L_lgfzkYCNCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22Germans%20chained%20to%22&f=false http://books.google.ca/books?id=c_e0oWoW43kC&pg=PA11&dq=%22Germans+chained+to%22&hl=en&ei=FdSqTI3iLIGClAeYpciaCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=%22Germans%20chained%20to%22&f=false http://books.google.ca/books?id=xsoGPOd66E0C&pg=PA277&dq=%22Germans+chained+to%22&hl=en&ei=FdSqTI3iLIGClAeYpciaCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.ca/books?id=X37RAAAAMAAJ&q=%22chained+to+machine+gun%22&dq=%22chained+to+machine+gun%22&hl=en&ei=r9WqTIbGOcX6lweFq6WRCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierlijn Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Hello too, to the thread that will not die. R. Feilding - War Letters To a Wife Medici Society edition 1930, p.192 PS My men found a dead German machine gunner chained to his gun. This is authentic. We have the gun, and the fact is vouched for by my men who saw it. I do not understand the meaning of this:- whether it was done under orders, or was a voluntary act on the part of the gunner to insure his sticking to his gun. If the latter, it is a thing to be admired greatly. This incident reported at Messines, 7th June 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 The British army certainly had men tied to artillery but not in the front line. The whole notion of chaining men to a weapon or a post is an absolute nonsense and only requires a second's thought to expose that. What would you do if you were chained to a gun and everybody else ran away? I would be waving every piece of white cloth I could lay my hands on. What purpose would it serve to chain a man to a gun? What would make him fire it? The whole crew need to be chained and the same goes for an artillery piece. Do you chain the observer to his post as well? Artillerymen and machinegunners and common or garden riflemen on all sides, showed that they did not need to be co-erced into doing their duty and exceeding it by far. If a gun needed manhandling there were plenty of men who did that because it was their duty. I can think of nothing more calculated to destroy a unit's morale than the knowledge that one of their comrades had been chained or had had to be chained to his post. I know its been beaten to death, but I was just rereading the thread and came across my own older quote and the response so I am replying to that. What I meant was that if an artillery piece was firing and during the firing the horses were killed. Suddenly, there appears to be a breakthrough and now the position is no longer tenable and the guns have to be moved. Without the horses the only thing available would be the men who would limber themselves up as pack pack animals and start to drag the gun away. Now if they were all killed while doing this and someone found them it would appear as if they were chained to the gun when in fact they were just trying to move it. Akin to the theory that the chain for the MG was really just a part of the sling to carry it. Jon (beating a dead horse so to speak) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 Do let me know if it responds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 I've bin a diggin & a diggin & have at last found irrefutable proof that German MG troops regurlarly chained themselves to their guns. This from 'Avec mitrailleuse à Combles' by sous Lt. J.Tati; (my translation) "& on the 4th of May 1915,the 131 RI found four complete enemy heavy MG crews dead at their posts due to the 'gripe aviaire' that they had primarily released against us but due to the change of wind,caused their own horrific demise. Each gunner was heavily chained to his/her* gun whilst a key to the substantial padlock was found chained round the neck of each assistant gunner.Each assistant to the assistant gunner carried a key to release the smaller padlocks that bound the chains around the assistant gunners necks that held the relase key.This was contained in a small heavy steel box. The 4th crewman was found in possesion of a Germanic looking crow bar." *only ref I can find to women gunners. This from 'Mon Chauchat et moi.Un veritable histoire de l'amour.' by Chef Caporal Gaston Bienpicolé CdG** (again,my translation) "& we was in this stinkin house that the blimmin Boche had used as a bog for weeks when we sees the dead bloke chained to the wall with his MG 08.Surely even the Boche coulda found a handier flushing mechanism.Harumph." This from 'Double Maxim,Biere et la Grande Guerre' by le Capitain Henri Groscon.(original English transcript done by the author) "so,we ad annuzzer leetle biere & thot,"ben,oui.Ce n'est pas trop mal,la guerre" when a big piggin ow you say? Owitzer thingy goes bang against ze wall & low and behold,there he was........... a Canadian soldier,chained to a mg 08 ( & here ees ze kicker) & he was nailed to a door in a Christ like fashion!!! Zut,I said.Zut!! What will ze barbarian Boche think of next??? I forget abou zis episode until we reached,er,Dinde?Oui.Turkey,& there was the sniper bird chained to ze bed but,I digress.That was 1937..... And finally. This from 'Bluchers & Buglers.Hi jinks with the red tabs,1914-18' by Sir D.Haig "& then French says,"don't Foch about,Pointcarré.Chuck me the bugle & I'll play you the Marseillaise with me *rse!" He was a class act. Foch, being foreign of course,couldn't help but be on topic hence the conversation drifted to topical wartime matters.Eez it true the Boche chain zere troops to zere guns?said he.I replied that no reports of this had ever reached my desk but...we had done trials with our own soldiers."Yes",says I."I had a coupla oiks chained to Lewis guns in nml as a field punishment but,all they did was pick up the gun & run away." There. I think we can finally close this thread now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 "There. I think we can finally close this thread now" Yes please!! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 Sweet Fancy Moses, someone push the button already! -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 I've bin a diggin & a diggin & have at last found irrefutable proof that German MG troops regurlarly chained themselves to their guns. .......................... There. I think we can finally close this thread now That all looks perfectly convincing to me mon cher Kartoffelkopf. Can I have your autograph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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