Brodie helmet identity question

[Historama]

Can anyone shed some light on a World War I era brodie mk II:

1. who's markings are "F6 30" or "F8 30" or "FS 30" (the stamping is not too clear)?

2. and which has a red six-pointed star on the front?

Helmet looks Canadian judging by the loop pegs for the liner.

I'm unable to upload a picture. The helmet has a sandy finish; the liner is missing but original khaki paint is visible in places. The star looks stenciled on and not hand-painted.

[john in minnesota]

Can anyone shed some light on a World War I era brodie mk II:

1. who's markings are "F6 30" or "F8 30" or "FS 30" (the stamping is not too clear)?

2. and which has a red six-pointed star on the front?

Helmet looks Canadian judging by the loop pegs for the liner.

I'm unable to upload a picture. The helmet has a sandy finish; the liner is missing but original khaki paint is visible in places. The star looks stenciled on and not hand-painted.

Your helmet sounds like a British made Brodie - the maker FS being Firth & Sons. The red six pointed star is likely from the US Army "Sight-Seeing Sixth" Division, who were given their name due to their rather late arrival upon the Western Front - seeing virtually no combat...

[Historama]

Your helmet sounds like a British made Brodie - the maker FS being Firth & Sons. The red six pointed star is likely from the US Army "Sight-Seeing Sixth" Division, who were given their name due to their rather late arrival upon the Western Front - seeing virtually no combat...

Thanks for the information! Following up on that, what does the '30' in the stamp mark mean? Also - do you have any ideas why the helmet has Canadian rivets on the strap hoops? I'll have a link to pictures ready shortly.

[Joe Sweeney]

The 30 is the Heat number of the furnace that produced the steel for the shell.

Joe Sweeney

[Historama]

The 30 is the Heat number of the furnace that produced the steel for the shell.

Joe Sweeney

Thank you John and Joe for your help! Each piece of information fills in holes in my knowledge and especially about his helmet.

I have a 3rd division brodie with American rivets holding in the strap hoops; any idea why a British-made Brodie would have Canadian rivets and an American divisional emblem? For instance, was there a period during the War in which such an arrangement existed?

[Joe Sweeney]

Around 400000 British Helmets were supplied to the AEF.

Sounds like your helmet was also repaired, but I don't know what you mean by Canadian rivets?

Joe Sweeney

[Historama]

This is the front of the helmet

Sorry about the size - it looks huge compared to how it appears on my viewer...

[Historama]

This is the detail of the loop rivet: as I understand, the 'bow-tie' rivet denotes a Canadian helmet and a round, 'ball' rivet denotes American helmets. Therefore I thought this was a Canadian Brodie...

[john in minnesota]

Hello,

That rivet (split pin) denotes British mfg - the Canadians only used British made helmets - the Canadians did not make a helmet during the First War. The US used British made helmets AND US made helmets with the round head rivet.

John

[Historama]

okay, now the details are making more sense for me... I'd been under the impression that a split-rivet was Canadian, but with that issue settled, the origins of the helmet make more sense.

Another question that came up is this: I'd taken the helmet to the Imperial War Museum many years ago, and they identified it as an "American Brodie". I'm sure it's British as you have all explained, but do you have any ideas why they would have thought of it as American? I can attach a picture of the inside (missing liner) if that helps...

[john in minnesota]

okay, now the details are making more sense for me... I'd been under the impression that a split-rivet was Canadian, but with that issue settled, the origins of the helmet make more sense.

Another question that came up is this: I'd taken the helmet to the Imperial War Museum many years ago, and they identified it as an "American Brodie". I'm sure it's British as you have all explained, but do you have any ideas why they would have thought of it as American? I can attach a picture of the inside (missing liner) if that helps...

I'm sure they made the identification based upon the US Army 6th Division insignia on the front....

[Andrew Upton]

Hello,

That rivet (split pin) denotes British mfg - the Canadians only used British made helmets - the Canadians did not make a helmet during the First War. The US used British made helmets AND US made helmets with the round head rivet.

John

I should point out that at least some of the early issue British made Brodies used the round style of rivit before the split rivet was introduced - I have one in my collection (an early rimless Brodie, complete with its original apple green paint finish, and the Portuguese leather liner).

[corkhead100]

I should point out that at least some of the early issue British made Brodies used the round style of rivit before the split rivet was introduced - I have one in my collection (an early rimless Brodie, complete with its original apple green paint finish, and the Portuguese leather liner).

Hi Andrew,

Will you post photos of this helmet?

Regards Malc.

[Andrew Upton]

Hi Andrew,

Will you post photos of this helmet?

Regards Malc.

Hmm, I wondered if someone would ask that!

I should be back at home with access to the helmet at the weekend, and I will try and get some pictures of it then.

[Andrew Upton]

Got the pictures at last. First, a picture of the outside. Note the large proprtion of the original apple green paint remaining, and the lack of the Portuguese transfer (no signs that it ever has it, unusually):

[Andrew Upton]

Now a picture of the liner - note how irregular the metal pieces holding the chinstrap loops are - one has had the corners clipped off, the other hasn't, yet both are the same as the day the helmet left the factory. The rivits are clearly not the split rivit type:

[Andrew Upton]

Close up of one of the chinstrap loops:

[Andrew Upton]

Close up of the other loop:

[Andrew Upton]

and finally, the makers mark - H over S (for Hadfields and Son of Sheffield) and next to 46 (to identify the batch of steel the metal came from should it be found to be defective) - you can also just about see the lines in the helmet radiating out, showing the deficiencies of the early stamping process:

[john in minnesota]

and finally, the makers mark - H over S and next to 46:

In my opinion, The helmet shell is British made but everything else was done to Portuguese specs (possibly even done in Portugal) ... this includes the paint, metal loops, rivets, leather lining and chinstrap. Not to say its not a good helmet - Portuguese helmets fetch pretty good money - but this was likely never worn by a British soldier.

Just my opinion,

John

[Andrew Upton]

In my opinion, The helmet shell is British made but everything else was done to Portuguese specs (possibly even done in Portugal) ... this includes the paint, metal loops, rivets, leather lining and chinstrap. Not to say its not a good helmet - Portuguese helmets fetch pretty good money - but this was likely never worn by a British soldier.

Just my opinion,

John

The helmets that were supplied to the Portuguese were manufactured and assembled in England, but in this case what was evidently selected to be fitted with the Portuguese pattern liner and chinstrap was a very early example of the rimless Brodie, including a number of features that aren't very tidy (namely the non-matching brackets holding the chinstrap loops), or were altered later (the use of round rivits as opposed to the later style split rivits) - my main point in using this helmet is that it is not entirely possible to divide the helmets into British/American made on the basis of the rivits being split/round, as some British made helmets like mine clearly were made with the round rivits before the split rivits were introduced!

[john in minnesota]

The helmets that were supplied to the Portuguese were manufactured and assembled in England, but in this case what was evidently selected to be fitted with the Portuguese pattern liner and chinstrap was a very early example of the rimless Brodie, including a number of features that aren't very tidy (namely the non-matching brackets holding the chinstrap loops), or were altered later (the use of round rivits as opposed to the later style split rivits) - my main point in using this helmet is that it is not entirely possible to divide the helmets into British/American made on the basis of the rivits being split/round, as some British made helmets like mine clearly were made with the round rivits before the split rivits were introduced!

Sorry but I disagree. I have seen no other evidence that round rivets are early. Because your shell has no rim, doesn't mean the whole thing is early production - the metal loops on yours are deeper than those normally found on the first pattern brodies (see photo). The Portuguese may have assembled that helmet at any time they issued that pattern helmet. Here are two rimless British examples; notice the smaller loops on the apple green shell with 1st pattern liner:

[Andrew Upton]

Sorry but I disagree. I have seen no other evidence that round rivets are early. Because your shell has no rim, doesn't mean the whole thing is early production - the metal loops on yours are deeper than those normally found on the first pattern brodies (see photo). The Portuguese may have assembled that helmet at any time they issued that pattern helmet. Here are two rimless British examples; notice the smaller loops on the apple green shell with 1st pattern liner:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this - helmets were either made in Britain or America, and all those for the Portuguese were assembled in Britain, and if you could handle the helmet like I can, you would clearly see it is exactly the same as the day it left the factory - one coat of paint, the liner has never even had the chinstrap untightened, and has now hardened into that position.

Personally, I think this helmet was assembled just at the point when the old multi-fingered liner was being replaced by the later style (hence the larger loops), but just before the adoption of the rim (which fits in nicely with the 1916 date when we started to make the helmets of the Portuguese), and the round rivits just might be an oddity/stop gap measure or an early feature - none the less, it still proves that they were used on British helmets, not just American ones!

[Joe Sweeney]

Andrew,

Is the weight of metal the same as a War Office/MKI helmet or inferior?

I have a rimless helmet with the machined rivet too.

I'm not at home to look at it, can't remember if it has the Manufacturers code and heat number.

Mine struck me as being slightly inferior metal but identical in shape to the normal rimless helmet.

The liner is a commercial liner, similar to the MKI liner but of much better quality and also dated 1915 with manufacturers mark.

I think mine was a commercial helmet, but I know that some of the early type A/B helmets were made with machine rivets too.

Joe Sweeney

[john in minnesota]

I just re-read Marcus Cotton's article in Militaria and he indicates that the earliest Brodies did in fact have round rivets - So I stand corrected...