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Moonraker

Definition of a "knut" please

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Jim Clay
Did someone say moderator?

Paul, behave :rolleyes: . Haven't you got project work to do?

Jim :D

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Tom Morgan

Ah, but abbreviations don't have apostrophes. Words like didn't and can't aren't abbreviations, they're contractions. Contractions have apostrophes to show where the letters have been missed out.

Abbreviations are just quick ways of writing words, like Mr., Oct., Nov., Dec., Ltd. and of course, N.C.O.

You have to look at the word(s) they abbreviation represents. N.C.O. stands for Non-Commissioned Officer. If there are two of them you would write Non-Commissioned Officers. Without an apostrophe. So the abbreviation doesn't have one either.

Nearly there, Jim!! :)

Tom

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Jim Clay
Ah, but abbreviations don't have apostrophes.

Tom (and Gwyn)

Thanks for that - I follow the logic, and will use apostrophe's :blink: correctly in future! Unfortunately, I can't take this up with my English teacher - not in this world, at least.

Jim

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Dragon

I'd suggest that each full stop in N.C.O. tells you that each letter is an abbreviation. Today, we wouldn't use any full stops. We'd just write NCOs. I checked that in two diferent Oxford writers' and editors' dictionaries, by the way.

However, what I'm wondering is whether in some cases, N.C.O. becomes a noun by adoption from another function class and so it has an irregular plural form rather like 'Mary' - if there's more than one Mary, then 's is sometimes used: Two Mary's; but it's so long since I did any morphology that I can't think it out so soon after a cappuccino. This sort of pluralisation sometimes happens in words that have recently changed form.

Does that help, Jim? :)

Gwyn

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Jim Clay
Does that help, Jim? :)

Yes it does, Gwyn, immensely. Thanks.

You know, I joined this Forum thinking I might get some help in explaining the photograph from which my avatar is extracted. I got that; I've now received a thorough education in the apostrophe and wot to do with it. It's good here innit!

Jim :)

PS - "if there's more than one Mary, then 's is sometimes used: Two Mary's" - I'm sure I've seen that form; it looks right, but IIRC the film "Heathers" (referring to two? three? girls named Heather) was apostrophe-free.

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Dragon

I don't know. The apostrophe has one of the most confusing histories in the history of punctuation. Rules for its use are relatively recent.

I dont know the film; I cant work the tele cos the remote need's a new battery and the instruction's are in Korean.

However, I do recall that remarkable line in 'The Winslow Boy' in which Catherine's rather pompous fiance says, 'Quite one of the Knuts...' and I never quite knew what it meant. I take it you remember that gripping line, Jim? :)

Gwyn

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Tom Morgan

Gwyn,

city - cities

lady - ladies

Mary - Maries

Thre have been lots of religious paintings featuring "The Three Maries."

Tom

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Dragon

But Barbara Strang's 'Modern English Structure' gives an example of Mary's. She refers to Four Mary's. But this is shown as only occasional alternative use; I formed the impression that Marys would be accurate.

Thank goodness my parents only gave me one in the middle of my name. If I had more, I'd need therapy.

Gwyn

Edited by Dragon

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Tom Morgan
Thank goodness my parents only gave me one in the middle of my name. I'd need therapy.

Gwyn

:lol:

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scragend
PS - "if there's more than one Mary, then 's is sometimes used: Two Mary's" - I'm sure I've seen that form; it looks right, but IIRC the film "Heathers" (referring to two? three? girls named Heather) was apostrophe-free.

That could be to do with the last letter, i.e. if it's one that would normally be changed in the plural (e.g. company > companies), but obviously can't be with names ("two Maries" would be a different name altogether), then people would put an apostrophe in. For Heathers, they - quite rightly - wouldn't.

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Moonraker

Blimey, I've only been off line for 20 hours and my simple enquiry generated 31 responses, though latterly they were more about punctuation. Still, the overall tone of the reaction was better than that to my other recent initial post on happy slapping.

Thanks for all the background to "knuts". I didn't spot the offending apostophes in the letter from The Times, which is unusual, as I have to be dragged away harrumphing from signs in shops and so on that display this error.

Incidentally last night ITV1 screened the film Two Weeks Notice (sic), and the Sunday Times Culture listing sniffed disdainfully about "its disregard for apostrophes...".

Moonraker

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squirrel

Sorry to bring this thread back but...............

In my earlier post I refered to the Anglo Saxon origin of "knut".

The connection to King Canute (Danish) and the Scandinavian origin is also correct, the spelling being Knut or Knute.

My surname (the K disappeared centuries ago) derives from this; the "kins" part being the diminutive Anglo Saxon for a relative or descendant of the original Knut.

I'm off to hold the sea back in a diminutive sort of way.

(I am aware that King Canute only attempted to hold the sea back to prove to his followers that he COULD NOT do it)

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Jim Clay
Incidentally last night ITV1 screened the film Two Weeks Notice (sic), and the Sunday Times Culture listing sniffed disdainfully about "its disregard for apostrophes...".

Moonraker

Moonraker

Sorry for my part in the blatant hi-jacking of your thread :D (and we'll let the diminutive descendant of Knut(e) attempt to bring it back on course with his sea-denying efforts) but ... with my new education in "apostrophes, punctuation for the use of" ... are you suggesting there's something wrong with "its disregard for apostrophes..."? Shurely not?

Jim :)

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squirrel

Just drying off.........

Have you bought the book "Eats shoots and leaves" yet?

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Muerrisch

And never mind the Frank Richardses [both authors] and Frank Richards's medals.

Come to that, The Prince of Wales's title has been held by many Princes of Wales, and his family, I gather, are the Waleses. Their family cars, I suppose, are the Waleses's cars.

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Horace Bachelor

Jim,

I see you're there. Let me be the first to congratulate you, also boosting my score by 1 at the same time. BTW, was it worth it?

See you soon I trust.

Rich.

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Jim Clay

Rich

Ta very much, mate. Was it worth it? Have you seen Samantha the barmaid? Blimey, no wonder they get flustered on I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue B)

Very friendly up here, but they drink like fish (fishes?). Get yerself up here, revisit those threads like C*l*br*ty B*g Br*th*r and new ones like Barking dogs - what to do etc etc.

Cheers (hic)

Jim

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scragend
Incidentally last night ITV1 screened the film Two Weeks Notice (sic), and the Sunday Times Culture listing sniffed disdainfully about "its disregard for apostrophes...".

I remember a similar comment somewhere in the papers when the film first came out. I did notice, though, that the Sky on-screen programme planner thing had it listed as "Two Weeks' Notice". So it seems that someone at Sky knows about punctuation :D

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Guest smithhoward

This is fantastic and may help a person on a Facebook page 'Discover a Digger' , Ann Cooling enquired.

Just seen a WWI photo of soldiers outside a hut with KNUTS on the door. I'm guessing this was a popular term in WWI, a bit like "we are the CHAMPIONS", rather than a regimental nickname. I recall a popular music-hall song went:

I'm Gilbert the Filbert,

The knut [nut?] with a K,

The Pride of Piccadily,

A blase roue.

A search of The Times came up with this on February 22, 1916, but exactly what was a knut?

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david murdoch

Came upon several of these old threads regarding "Knuts" as I have seen a photograph with this written on, and been trying to find out what it meant. The picture is of my Grandfather's church football team just after the war(he's sitting front left). Someone posted on local history facebook page and everyone wondering what this meant. I have an original copy of this photo, but does not have this written on. Most of this team are war vets - as their names are on a roll of honour plaque in the church.

14432985_606663766207483_7520496916344023180_n.jpg

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Knotty

Thanks David for bringing  this thread up, never have seen it otherwise. As you can see from my profile surname = Knott, and the derivation is that the English-language surname is derived from the Middle English personal name Knut, a cognate of the Old Norse personal name Knútr, which is in turn derived from knútr ("knot").

 

John

Edited by Knotty

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David Filsell

"A knut was a young man about town, a dedicated follower of fashion. Do we have a modern equivalent?"

 

If they don't even need ties in the H of C, if T shirts, long shorts and trainers are everywhere. I think the answer is no. 

Edited by David Filsell

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Stoppage Drill

"Where are the lads of the village tonight,

Where are the knuts we knew,

In Piccadilly ? In Leicester Square ? No, not there.

No, not there. They're taking a trip on the Continong,

With their rifles and bayonets bright.

Facing danger gladly, where they're needed badly.

That's where they are tonight."

 

Popular song. Words and music by R. P. Weston and Herman Darewski.

 

The song quoted in the OP was associated with a character "Gilbert the Filbert, the knut with a K" created by Basil Hallam Radford, whose stage name was Basil Hallam. An Old Carthusian, he was killed in action on 20 August 1916.

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Steven Broomfield
1 hour ago, Knotty said:

Thanks David for bringing  this thread up, never have seen it otherwise. As you can see from my profile surname = Knott, and the derivation is that the English-language surname is derived from the Middle English personal name Knut, a cognate of the Old Norse personal name Knútr, which is in turn derived from knútr ("knot").

 

John

 

And, of course, Canute, whose action in proving to his courtiers that he couldn't hold back the tide is commemorated by a street and an hotel with his name in Southampton.

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Stoppage Drill

Remains in a mortuary chest in Winchester Cathedral.

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