29th Siege Battery RGA

[charlie962]

I suggest that 29th Division is the '29' reference for Kirby ?

Courtesy MrG:(29th Divisional Artillery War Record)

Edited 12 August , 2020 by charlie962

[MaxD]

The London Gazette entries are simply two of Brig Gen Kirby's appointments.  There are a number as he progressed up the promotion ladder, promoted Lt Col in Oct 1914 and so on, he had served in the Boer War previously. .  I'm afraid their relevance escapes me !

 

Max

[Helen McQuie]

Sellers Thomas 1889 WW2 enlistment.pdf

 

 

Edited 12 August , 2020 by Helen McQuie
wrong folder

[MaxD]

  Charlie - that is very useful indeed well done!!! It is just what I was looking for.  I didn't want to say without proof that this wasn't a letter or related to 29 Siege but the typical missive sent by a GOC RA when he left.  This has gone to 29 Division and there would have others to other divisional CRAs.in the Corps.  I'd say you have successfully got Kirby's story out of the way as essentially irrelevant.  A quick look at 29 Divisional artillery doesn't include anything with a 6  in it but the missive also would have gone down the heavy chain of command..

 

As to the WW2 enlistment - no doubt about what is written there but I really cannot link the terminology to anything.

 

His rank is of Gunner and the word Battery both point to the Royal Artillery.  6 Brigade in the Royal Artillery would point to:

 

6 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery made up of a varying number of siege and heavy batteries, each of which had a number, 2 Siege Battery belonged to 6 Heavy Artillery Brigade briefly in 1915 and then to innumerable other brigades..

Just in case he transferred to RFA -  Brigade Royal Field Artillery - remained in India throughout the war.

 

Unless there is another lightning flash like your Charlie I still can't progress my thoughts.

 

Max

 

 

 

[MaxD]

Helen

 

I think I owe you an apology for not explaining what has misled you with the military terminology.  The missive that Charlie has dug up is almost certainly what you have been referring to.  It is clear that this was sent from Kirby who was the artillery commander the next level up at II Corps to the artillery commanders below him at divisional level, this was the one received by 29th Division's artillery commander.  There would have been others sent to the other divisions in the Corps.  29 Siege Battery was a completely different unit altogether which had nothing at all to do with 29th Division.

 

Max

[charlie962]

On 11/08/2020 at 05:50, Helen McQuie said:

Family stories say that he was a dispatch rider,  he was wounded quite severely and nearly lost his leg. He was gassed by mustard gas and suffered from the effects for the rest of his long life. He was buried alive in a chalk pit (I think in Belgium), his friend came looking for him and dug him out.  He experienced a full retreat (maybe at Loos) and we think he may have served at Ypres

Lots of little bits there.

 

We are all happy I think , that he went out with 29 Siege Battery to France 31/5/15. (MIC, Roll and same date 29SB went to France). The question is how long did he stay with them ?

 

Familly stories suggest he was gassed and wounded. I cannot (yet) find him on any official casualty list and thus tie down a date. Anyone else better at this ?

 

Thoughts- It is possible after his wounding that he was transferred to an HQ role ? The despatch rider mention would also fit with being in such a unit.

 

Like Max, I cannot make headway with 2 Bty 6 Bde connection

 

Thinking.....

 

Charlie

[MaxD]

9 hours ago, Helen McQuie said:

The Corps Commander desires me to send you his thanks for all the good work you have done whilst serving with the Royal Artillery in the Second Corps. I also wish to express to you my appreciation of your good work.  I wish you all good luck in the future" signed A D Kirby Br General G.O.C.R.A 2ND Corps  Cologne 1919"

 

Reviewing the puzzle pieces.  This is said to be 1919.  The message to the divisional CsRA from Kirby direct is dated May 1918 and on reflection suggests the occasion was the move of 29 Div away from II Corps but I can't stand that up at present . Charlie - does the history put that message in the context of a change of Corps?

 

Helen -  do you have the 1919 message in its original form?  Could it be something given to all demobilising artillerymen as they left for UK = it certainly has the look of such a thing.

 

Like nailing jelly to a wall.

 

Max

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, MaxD said:

does the history put that message in the context of a change of Corps?

I'll check but I believe that is so. Kirby remained CRA II Corps

[MaxD]

On 12/08/2020 at 10:35, Helen McQuie said:

The Corps Commander desires me to send you his thanks for all the good work you have done whilst serving with the Royal Artillery in the Second Corps. I also wish to express to you my appreciation of your good work.  I wish you all good luck in the future" signed A D Kirby Br General G.O.C.R.A 2ND Corps  Cologne 1919"

 

Charlie - Going round the buoy again some of my earlier guesswork is way off.  I now believe the Kirby thing is a misunderstanding on Helen's part. and is irrelevant  As his name was on the 1919 message to departing Gunners, Helen has then looked for more evidence of Kirby (she saud she had seen an article) and linked the number 29 with him, probably the 29th Division message that you found, thinking he and 29th Siege had something to do with each other.  

That element of the story does not figure in the summary of his service.  The only part of the Kirby element that is relevant is that our subject was almost certainly in II Corps in 1919 and since Oct 1918 in that puzzling 2nd Battery 6 Brigade which still eludes me.

 

I suggest we leave Kirby alone and concentrate on II Corps!

 

Max

[charlie962]

I said above that Sellers presumably went to France 31st August 1915 with 29 SB.

 

The original subject of this thread was a Roll at Dover Castle. It shows all those on the Nominal Roll of 29 SB at 1st December 1915. Although it also purports to be 'original members' I assume it is not strictly correct ?

 

Sellers does not appear on this Roll. Therefore should we not presume that by that date he had left the Battery for ... ?

 

Charlie

 

PS Max, I agree that Kirby's career is irrelevant. It is just that he was CRA II Corps at the time the letter was given to Sellers.

[charlie962]

II Corps Diary:

15/11/1918  6th (mixed) Bde RGA (less 9.2" Bty) transferred from X Corps to II Corps

[MaxD]

First spot - it is the nominal roll at 1 Dec 1915 so in  France  - as he went on 31 August he had left (or had the day off).

 

Second - another potentially clue busting spot Charlie!.  Thrashing around in some (mercifully still free) war diaries now nicely puts 6 Brigade in II Corps at the right time so the query is to find 2nd Battery!    I've looked at both the Commander Heavy Artillery II Corps diary and the 6 Brigade diary for the end of the war period and the term just does not appear!

 

Thus at this stage thanks in large part to your eagle eyes, there is some clarity but we still don't know when his move from 29 SB to something in 6 Brigade took place!

 

Max

[charlie962]

On 13/08/2020 at 15:46, MaxD said:

2nd Battery

Max- I got side tracked looking at 2 Siege Battery War Diary. In fact what Discovery list as 2 Siege Bty War Diary WO-95-479-6 and 479-7 is the personal War Diary of G B Mackenzie. He started off 1914 commanding 2 SB but then moved July 1915 to command 15 Siege Battery and upwards April 1916 to command a Brigade ( 8 HAG ) and Feb 1917 to command II Corps Heavy Artillery as a Brigadier General. Thus diary is only in part dedicated to 2 Siege Battery !

 

Irrelevant to this thread but one of those fascinating documents you come across by accident when looking for something else. Recommended reading.

 

If DNA were not free I would not have considered it worthwhile to speculate on some of these diaries. Thank-you, National Archives.

 

Charlie

Edited 15 August , 2020 by charlie962

[charlie962]

12 minutes ago, MaxD said:

I've looked at both the Commander Heavy Artillery II Corps diary and the 6 Brigade diary for the end of the war period and the term just does not appear!

ditto !

[charlie962]

Could he (Sellers in 1940) have meant 2 Corps 6 Brigade but it is recorded as 2 Battery 6 Brigade ?? (ok, clutching at straws)

Edited 13 August , 2020 by charlie962

[MaxD]

The thought had occurred but I thought as an old soldier he would have got the nomenclature correct - or did the clerk fill it in??  Could well be!

 

Echo your thanks to the National Archives, I am looking at another RGA man whose batteries encompass a total of 18 HAG diaries! 

 

Max

 

 

[Helen McQuie]

On 05/02/2006 at 08:20, essdee said:

Roop

More officers

I found this when I was searching the newspapers. 

[Helen McQuie]

On 12/08/2020 at 23:49, MaxD said:

Helen

 

I think I owe you an apology for not explaining what has misled you with the military terminology.  The missive that Charlie has dug up is almost certainly what you have been referring to.  It is clear that this was sent from Kirby who was the artillery commander the next level up at II Corps to the artillery commanders below him at divisional level, this was the one received by 29th Division's artillery commander.  There would have been others sent to the other divisions in the Corps.  29 Siege Battery was a completely different unit altogether which had nothing at all to do with 29th Division.

 

Max

Here is a copy of the letter. It obviously meant a lot to Tom as it is one of the few things he kept from his war years. I just looked again at the dates of the birth of his second child.  
Am I right in thinking  that as it  was the middle of  October 1918 it is unlikely that he would have been home on leave, and this may have been when he was wounded for the second time. Tom said he had been in the Occupation Forces in Cologne and going by his medal index he demobilized on 6th June 1919. I wonder if he would have gone back to the Front after the baby is born. He did say that they said he didn't have to go back to the Front after one of the times he was badly wounded, but he said he wanted to go back to be with his mates. But when he got back most of them were dead.

[charlie962]

Helen,

That letter is dated 1919 so Sellers must have received it in 1919.

Is it clear whether this is an original letter or a duplicated letter ? - I would have thought the latter because his name has been added afterwards in a different hand. I have no knowledge of duplication printing techniques at that time.

 

Just for comparison here is his signature

 

 

OK the initials are not joined up but it is his handwriting.

Does the letter imply that he was attached to Corps HQ at the end ?

 

One can understand it meant a lot to him. I wonder how many gunners received this letter ?

 

So no new deduction by me, I'm afraid.

[MaxD]

Some observations with similar thoughts to Charlie.  From personal experience of drafting similar letters for senior officers, I would say the letter has all the appearance of a duplicated letter sent to all Gunners as they left for home.  Nonetheless, certainly something to be valued.

 

29 Siege Battery is last recorded in 33 Brigade RGA whose diary runs out at the end of November 1918.

 

From 2 Dec 1918, the II Corps Heavy Artillery consisted of 4 Brigade RGA, 6 Brigade RGA, 10 Brigade and some other smaller units,.  This, with the reference to 6 Brigade in the WW2 enlistment, would suggest he was in that brigade when he left Germany.

 

As to leave in late 1918, while there are no soldier' names to be found, there are references to officers leave in the 1 Brigade diary (29 SB was in 1 Brigade before 33 Brigade) as late as the first week of November.  The II Corps Heavy Artillery was in Cologne by 16/17 Dec 1918 marching past the Corps Commander on 18th.  It was one of the five Corps that became the first British Army of the Rhine in 1919. 

 

Max

 

[Helen McQuie]

On 11/08/2020 at 22:27, MaxD said:

The great difficulty is that we don't have a service record for him and the information is a bit anomalous.  The medal roll is here recording the battery he started with but in October 1918 we have him described as 6 Brigade.  There was a 6 Brigade RGA but that is odd in itself as RGA brigades comprised a varying number of heavy and/or siege batteries that came and went and it is the norm for a man to describe himself as belonging to nnn battery, in fact in the RGA they probably didn't know what brigade they were in.  He also is described as a private when that rank is not in the Gunners. 

 

Perhaps others will suggest a way to expand on what you have.

 

(Not material but Brigadier Generals commanding the Corps artillery are too exalted a rank to serve in siege batteries so a bit of misunderstanding there perhaps)

 

Max

Just reading this again. What does nnn Battery refer too?

[MaxD]

nnn is a way of representing an unknown number.  An alternative would be to say "belonging to so and so battery".

 

I was wrestling there with the term "2nd Battery 6 Brigade" which, if there had been a 2 or second battery in 6 Brigade RGA could have pinpointed which battery he belonged in 1919.  I am happy that his final brigade in 1919 in II Corps was 6 Brigade RGA but the battery remains an unknown.  The batteries that were in 6 Brigade after the move into Germany were 109 Heavy and 114, 111, 24 and 227 Siege, all of which had left by 30 April 1919 when the 6 Brigade diary ends.

 

Max