Guest JVNo1fan Posted 24 January , 2006 Share Posted 24 January , 2006 I have a button which is made from brass, is round and bulbous with the map of Australia and on the front it says "Australian Military Forces". On the back it states "J W Tiptaft & Son Ltd Bimringham". Can anyone tell me anything about this button? I am trying to track down ancestors. Any help would be of great assistance. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 25 January , 2006 Share Posted 25 January , 2006 It's the standard Australian button used from 1914-1930. There were three variants; map of Australia with no internal boundaries, map of Australia with internal boundaries and a 'mistake' internal boundaries map which didn't demarcate the Northern Territories. Tiptaft is a bonus, as it's not the usual 'big three' (Gaunt, Firmin or Buttons Ltd). If it has no internal boundaries on the map it is difficult to date from a description as the 'no boundaries' was standard in WW2. Factors such as the lettering and the shape of the Crown would assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 25 January , 2006 Share Posted 25 January , 2006 From the 'Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing - 1912' - Buttons. – Will be of universal pattern as sealed, and will bear the Imperial crown, the design of the Commonwealth, and the words “Australian Military Forces.” I'm sorry to say the button won't help you find any ancestors. The button has come off an Aussie jacket (probably WWI) so maybe they served in the AIF (Australian Imperial Force) . It's a standard Aussie brass button. It's not the most common type of button, but used enough so not to be of any help identifying anyone from any particular unit etc. Am unsure when Tiptaft first made buttons for the Australians but definitely during the First World War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 25 January , 2006 Share Posted 25 January , 2006 There were three variants; map of Australia with no internal boundaries, map of Australia with internal boundaries and a 'mistake' internal boundaries map which didn't demarcate the Northern Territories. I wouldn't say 'mistake,' but an oversight. The Northern Territory was part of New South Wales from 1825 to 1863 and then part of South Australia from 1863 to 1911. On 1 January 1911, a decade after federation, the Northern Territory was separated from South Australia and transferred to Commonwealth control. Obviously some British manufactures weren't up to date with the latest changes, hence no boundary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JVNo1fan Posted 26 January , 2006 Share Posted 26 January , 2006 Thank you to both of you who replied. You both obviously know your stuff. I now know it won't help me find any ancestors but it was extremely interesting to read both posts. Thank you again! Jane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 27 January , 2006 Share Posted 27 January , 2006 I wouldn't say 'mistake,' but an oversight. The Northern Territory was part of New South Wales from 1825 to 1863 and then part of South Australia from 1863 to 1911. On 1 January 1911, a decade after federation, the Northern Territory was separated from South Australia and transferred to Commonwealth control. Obviously some British manufactures weren't up to date with the latest changes, hence no boundary. I picked up a pair of Tiptaft marked Australian collar badges in brass - are these unique to WW1 or did Tiptaft continue making them into WW2? Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auzzzie Posted 25 December , 2007 Share Posted 25 December , 2007 Bumping up an old thread here, but I thought it would make sense to keep it all in one place. I've got a couple of buttons (no borders on the map), one bigger and one smaller. The bigger one is made by Stokes and Sons, Melbourne, and the smaller one by K.C. Luke PTY. LTD., Melbourne. Can anybody tell me if it is likely to be from WW1 or WW2? I could provide a photo if it would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nything Posted 25 December , 2007 Share Posted 25 December , 2007 Hi Auzzzie You would have to be a Collingwood supporter. K Gee Luke was President of Carlton for many years, he was the epitome of the "Little Aussie Battler" who made good. Check out a Biography on the net. He was not making buttons, trophies, [brownlows, melbourne cups etc] until well after the first world war. Interesting discussion on the Northern Territory. It was 'always there' regardless of who governed it. Actually, that is not quite true because "Centralia" was actually governed from Alice Springs for a few years. Why wasn't the ACT shown seperately?, poor old Tassie is the usual candidate for exclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 December , 2007 Share Posted 26 December , 2007 An interesting thread. I believe there were 4 different sizes of button . Very small for cap chin straps etc , small for tunic pockets , medium for fastening the tunic and large for the greatcoat. I have never come across one with the state boundaries marked, can anybody post a pic of that type of button ? Was there any rhyme or reason in the way the buttons were issued ? I mean was it an early or late war thing or were they issued throughout ? I do know that blokes would try to get hold of the metal buttons for their "walking out" tunics. They seemed to favour those over the bone ones . I attach some photos showing the different size of buttons and one of a digger showing at least 2 of those sizes in use "MO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 December , 2007 Share Posted 26 December , 2007 and the greatcoat ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 26 December , 2007 Share Posted 26 December , 2007 An interesting thread. I believe there were 4 different sizes of button . Very small for cap chin straps etc , small for tunic pockets , medium for fastening the tunic and large for the greatcoat. MO, can you substantiate the four sizes for buttons at all? Your post sent me scurrying through the assorted collection of military buttons I've accumulated in addition to those still attached to various bits of clothing in my ownership, and whilst there is some variation in size, I can only discern three main sizes - small, medium and large (the same sized large buttons being used on both greatcoats and the main buttons on a tunic). But you are the second person I've seen mention an even larger sized button for the greatcoat, but I've seen nothing to back this up. The large buttons in my posession seem to vary anything from about 2.4 to 2.7cm across (making me wonder if someone had a greatcoat with the slightly larger ones on, and a tunic with slightly smaller ones on and jumped to the conclusion the larger was a special design for greatcoats rather than a slight makers variation?), medium from about 1.8 to 2.3cm across, and small from about 1.2 to 1.4cm across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 December , 2007 Share Posted 26 December , 2007 Andrew , the photos say it all look at the photo of the Digger. The greatcoat buttons are larger than the tunic buttons . As I said I have 4 sizes (honest lol) The smallest ones (not much bigger than a pea, average pea of course ) are on the cap .The next 2 sizes small and medium are the ones used on the tunic. And the large brass ones are for the great coat . "MO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 26 December , 2007 Share Posted 26 December , 2007 Andrew , the photos say it all look at the photo of the Digger. The greatcoat buttons are larger than the tunic buttons . As I said I have 4 sizes (honest lol) The smallest ones (not much bigger than a pea, average pea of course ) are on the cap .The next 2 sizes small and medium are the ones used on the tunic. And the large brass ones are for the great coat . "MO" Ok, trust those colonials to do things differently! I was comparing British buttons - on closer inspection of your photos, it appears the Australians have choosen to use a slightly smaller button for closing the front of the tunic and a larger one on the greatcoat in place of the standard British practice of using the same large sized button for both! I'm guessing the largest sized Australian button for the greatcoat is probably roughly the same size as the British tunic/greatcoat button, no British equivalent for what you term medium sized Aussie issue, the British medium being your Aussia small, and the British small being the Aussie very small! Although it would be easier if I had some examples to hand for size comparison. Confused? I was, trying to type that right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 26 December , 2007 Share Posted 26 December , 2007 yes that sounds about right . I have a lot of shots of men in greatcoats but not many face on . Heres a couple I do have "MO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nything Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 Mo, The buttons are great, but HOW could young Taylor get that perfect curve in the slouch hat? Just to show what the "Colonials" were given to work with :- ] REL33679 Button die : Australian Military Forces Heraldry United Kingdom c 1915-1918 Cast iron; Steel; Die for an Australian Military Forces uniform button. The die is made of cast iron and has a cast steel inlay onto which the pattern of the button is impressed. It displays a King's crown above a map of Australia with state borders and the words 'AUSTRALIAN MILITARY FORCES' below. A makers mark reads 'FIRMIN & SONS LTD'. Impressed into the cast iron are the inscriptions ' RUN E.R.', 'CEG' and '1687'. This die was used to produce buttons for Australian uniforms during the First World War, and may also have been used during the Second World War. Firmin & Sons were established in 1677 in London, and have long held warrants of appointment as button makers to the Royal family. Now based in Birmingham, their primary business is the production of uniform buttons, but they also manufacture uniform, swords, badges and other accoutrements. There are 000's of pics on the AWM.gov.au database for buttons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 NT thanks for that and welcome to the forum (where are you ? ), I still have not seen that "bordered" button in the flesh, But I will be looking from now on . Andrew I think your spot with your assumption of Oz button sizes . As far as I know GS buttons come in 3 sizes as you described. I have not come across many AMF greatcoat buttons and the ones pictured are the only 2 I have "MO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 Mo, Some "bordered" buttons from British made Australian WW1 greatcoat. 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 Thanks for that Grant. Cant wait till the next militaria fair ! "MO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 To go off at a slight tangent and apologies for it, a long time ago I bought a Liverpool University OTC cadets uniform including beret and service dress cap.The service dress cap actually has anodised "Australian Military forces" Kings crown side buttons and the cap was made by Herbert Johnson for Chorleys of Canberra. I was told that the cap had been bought at a military surplus shop in London by the cadet. Amazing where these Australian buttons turn up ! P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auzzzie Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 Hi Auzzzie You would have to be a Collingwood supporter. K Gee Luke was President of Carlton for many years, he was the epitome of the "Little Aussie Battler" who made good. Check out a Biography on the net. He was not making buttons, trophies, [brownlows, melbourne cups etc] until well after the first world war. Interesting discussion on the Northern Territory. It was 'always there' regardless of who governed it. Actually, that is not quite true because "Centralia" was actually governed from Alice Springs for a few years. Why wasn't the ACT shown seperately?, poor old Tassie is the usual candidate for exclusion. Heaven forbid! I'm a Brisbane Lions man. Thanks for the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nything Posted 27 December , 2007 Share Posted 27 December , 2007 "Heaven forbid! I'm a Brisbane Lions man" Hell! another deluded Roy supporter is too much to Bear ! (too far NORTH) G'day Mo, Now firmly South of the Border (down Melbourne way) but with very fond memories of the years spent in the NT (up Darwin way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 2 January , 2008 Share Posted 2 January , 2008 Again, from the 'Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing - 1912' - 13. Buttons. – These will be placed as in sealed patterns. The sizes are as follows: – Large - - - 39 lines. Medium - - - 32 lines. Small - - - 26 lines. Cap and gorget - 18 lines. Buttons will be of brass of universal pattern. 'lines' is the correct terminology for measuring the width of buttons, equal to 1/40 inch (0.635 millimeter). So 40 lines would equal an inch. Cheers, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Fisher Posted 2 January , 2008 Share Posted 2 January , 2008 I have a Machine Gunner's Waistcoat with bakelite versions of these buttons. Are they a later period or an economy measure? Many thanks, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 3 January , 2008 Share Posted 3 January , 2008 Hi Auzzzie Interesting discussion on the Northern Territory. It was 'always there' regardless of who governed it. Actually, that is not quite true because "Centralia" was actually governed from Alice Springs for a few years. Why wasn't the ACT shown seperately?, poor old Tassie is the usual candidate for exclusion. NeThing, 'Centralia' only came into effect on the 1 Feb 1927 and lasted only 5 years. You may be thinking of the short lived colony (Feb - Dec 1846) of 'North Australia', but its capital was Port Curtis (Gladstone). As we are discussing the years prior to 1918 I'm happy to stand by my comments that the NT was part of NSW from 1825 till 1863 and then part of SA from 1863 to 1911. You will also find the ACT marked (as well as all borders) on some later manufactured buttons possibly of the post WWII period. Cheers, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 3 January , 2008 Share Posted 3 January , 2008 I have a Machine Gunner's Waistcoat with bakelite versions of these buttons. Are they a later period or an economy measure? Many thanks, Richard Richard can you show an image or describe the buttons on the waist coat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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