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Remembered Today:

11/Manchester Regt War Diary


birkettm

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Hi does anyone have the war diary for the 11/Manchesters for early october 1917? I suspect this will place them at 3rd Ypres...

I am particularly interested in action on and around 05/10/17 as i am attempting to reseach Pte. J. O. Scott, 11/Manchesters. If no one has the above diary can someone point me in the right direction of getting it? Bearing in mind i cant get to PRO.

Thanks!

Marc

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Marc

Except for copies that may be in Members' hands, I don't know of one outside of Kew. The Regimental Archives at Ashton under Lyne has an unpublished battalion history that may give some info.

John

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Hi

On the 4 Oct the 11th Batt were assaulting the Red Line (Gloster Farm) just south of Poelcapplle, Q/377830 Pte J.O. Scott was reported missing on the 5th Oct 1917. The Q is the Coy he was in.

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Thanks for this chaps. John - i will endeavor to get in touch with them. monsstar - thanks for this - would you have a source for it?

Thanks!

Marc

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Hi does anyone have the war diary for the 11/Manchesters for early october 1917?

Here ya go, Marc!, (I suspect someone would have pointed you in my direction before long anyway!!! <_< )

Page 1...

post-7911-1138477851.jpg

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Thats absolutely fantastic! Thankyou very much. I shall transcibe it now and post here if i get stick with the writing....

Thankyou very much!

Marc

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  • 1 year later...
To the chap / chapesse who felt the need to nick this to use on their website. Thanks very much. Next time you could even ask.

http://www.themanchesters.org/11th%20wd.htm

for your information,we have the 11th war diary,the unpublished battalion history and a multitude of info about the 11th battalion,plus all the medal rolls for this battalion,including many photos of individuals,WE didnt nick anything from YOU,or anyone else on this forum,our write up was typed up by chris,weeks ago,one of the people who answered your query[monsstar]is one of the owners of our site,myself and chris are the other two,WE dont need to stoop so low as to steal other peoples research or hard work,WE dont need too because we already have this info,i myself have had the unpublished 11th batt history for months,we have had the 11th war diary for 2 years,YOU have only just got your info in the past couple of days,so how come you accuse US of stealing your material,AND for your information,one of the distinguished members of our mancs forum is dave o.mara.the leading light on the 11th batt,so why would we want to steal the miniscule info that you have,when we already have the main man himself as a member.next time you accuse someone,get your facts straight before you publish it in front of this forum. :angry:
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Except for copies that may be in Members' hands, I don't know of one outside of Kew. The Regimental Archives at Ashton under Lyne has an unpublished battalion history that may give some info.

Further to my earlier post, I've been researching at the Regimental Archives for the last couple of weeks or so. They now have a full copy of the war diary. Someone has donated a set of digi-photos taken from the original at Kew - it's something I've been doing for them as well, but I don't know who did this particular set.

John

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Obviously typed it up with the name of the soldier i was researching at the top too, and missed all of the exact same words.

Dont get your knickers in a twist - you mentioned stealing - not me. I was just saying it would be nice to know.

Sheesh.

I also note the great delight you take in bellittling others research - well done - doesnt that make you feel grand.

I shall leave you to cause an argument in an empty room. :blink:

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is dave o.mara.the leading light on the 11th batt,

I'm not sure that Dave would make such a claim for himself - but he is dead helpful, which I'm sure is why he posted the war diary photos for Marc above. :ph34r:

John

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for your information,we have the 11th war diary,the unpublished battalion history and a multitude of info about the 11th battalion,plus all the medal rolls for this battalion,including many photos of individuals,WE didnt nick anything from YOU,or anyone else on this forum,our write up was typed up by chris,weeks ago,one of the people who answered your query[monsstar]is one of the owners of our site,myself and chris are the other two,WE dont need to stoop so low as to steal other peoples research or hard work,WE dont need too because we already have this info,i myself have had the unpublished 11th batt history for months,we have had the 11th war diary for 2 years,YOU have only just got your info in the past couple of days,so how come you accuse US of stealing your material,AND for your information,one of the distinguished members of our mancs forum is dave o.mara.the leading light on the 11th batt,so why would we want to steal the miniscule info that you have,when we already have the main man himself as a member.next time you accuse someone,get your facts straight before you publish it in front of this forum. :angry:

Sir,

In the reply above, I can only assume that you have not compared the two documents when you state that “your” document has been produced by someone else, this, frankly is absurd as they are identical down to the name of the soldier in question, the style it is written in and the missing words and mistakes. I have taken images of the site at http://www.themanchesters.org/11th%20wd.htm and dated them appropriately. You have stated above why you would not want or need to steal my work and yet you have, as anyone can see they are blatantly the same document.

I should also state at this point, that at no time I have agreed to provide free transcription services for your website, or, agreed to become an author of your website, if this is a condition of documents being provided via this website (the GWF) i can find not reference of it.

Now the issue becomes one of infringement of copyright, as to the best of my knowledge, any work produced is the copyright of the owner (i.e. me), you may also notice a copyright symbol on this board, I am investigating whether this pertains to the software or the content, I would assume the software. Now as anyone who develops and publishes on the internet knows you just can go stealing content to embellish your own site. Please see the site at UKCopyrightService.co.uk (http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law) for a fuller explanation of why I (or the board) own the copyright to this post. Their FAQ states:

“What types of work are protected?

Any literary, dramatic, design, musical or artistic work. So long as the work exhibits a degree of skill, labour or judgement.“

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/questions

I also point you towards “Netiquette”, by Virginia Shea, specifically the Copyright and posted material section, http://www.albion.com/netiquette/book/0963702513p136.html, the following useful website re: US Copyright Law (where the Manchesters site in question is hosted) - http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html, and the legal page for the web host of the site - http://domainsbyproxy.com/LegalAgreement.aspx?prog_id= . Notice specifically the prohibitions. You may also notice the legal complaints section.

I have pulled this stuff together from a 20 minute trawl through the internet and though there is nothing specific to transcriptions of documents in the public arena, and I am awaiting a reply from Pete regarding specific copyright issues with this site, I feel I am on a pretty secure legal footing.

Before you so expertly managed to get my back up (is that chip on your shoulder heavy?), I was quite happy to accept an apology, and a link reference back to the GWF on the page in question at http://www.themanchesters.org/11th%20wd.htm, I would also have been willing to provide photos of the chaps medals and his entry in the Manchesters Memorial Book from the Regimental Chapel which were kindly provided by Manchester Cathedral when I acquired the set.

I will be in receipt of a public apology and my offers will still stand.

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you have been on this forum long enough to know that i dont have a chip on my shoulder nor do i belittle other people,i have always followed the rules and helped others the best i can,and recieved much help in return,i have never had a argument with any member on this forum nor slagged any of them off,i owe you no apology,you posted something about a good pal of mine in front of the whole forum,wouldnt it have been appropriate to have dropped chris a PM first,instead of putting him on public trial.finally,it was you who mentioned the word NICK,read your posts,we dont need to embellish our site,its already well embellished thank you.now i will leave you to argue in an empty room,i reckon that was your aim in the first place,thats why you posted what you did on the main forum.

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i have just enquired about the source of where chris got the transcription from,it was sent to him by a lady called ann,he posted it on our forum,if you go on our forum and click on to the ww1 section and scroll down to the topic,11th batt,you will see for yourself,i will contact chris and have it removed,chris is oblivious of this discussion,so hes innocently posted something that he thought someone had donated to us.

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Well as you can see its there, dated, in black and white, to be told that it has been done by someone else is too much, furthermore had i know it was this chris i would have pmed him directly. It doesnt say.

We shall leave it there shall we.

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birkettm

i am the webmaster of the manchester regiment group site and as such, am responsible for it's content

the pages containing your partial transcribing of the 11th battalion war diaries have now been removed

as mack has stated, they were sent to me by a lady called Anne for inclusion on our site, with no reference to yourself and were posted in good faith by myself this year. I can only apologise if i posted your work but i did so with the impression that I had permission to do so

the manchester regiment group and it's site is dedicated to the memory of the soldiers of the regiment who suffered and died for their comrades, king and country, the content of the site is provided by members of the group from the records of the regiment, it is researched and freely given to anyone who has an interest in the regiment, and we have no wish to include anything that is not freely given

as for the 11th battalion history, i have prepared a rather sizable account (running to over 30 pages at present), i will be incorporating a searchable roll of honour, cross-referenced to the history and contempory newpaper reports. Crooneart has agreed to contribute and give us the benefit of his well known knowledge on the battalion

for your own information, regarding your transcript

october 1917

" right of the 2/5th _____." should read on the "night of the 2nd - 3rd"

"was thoroughly ____ _____ and string" s/b "was throughly reconnoitered and string"

Lt Pearson is correct, but Major Mengens is Major Meugens (CO)

also it's worth adding that in this action Sgt Coverdale won a Victoria Cross

chris

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ps

i might add that I left the dedication to the soldier at the top of the transcription as a mark of respect for the soldier and the person who had done the transcript ( who I assumed had sent it to me) not in error

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Thanks very much. And thanks for your corrections.

All i was going to say originally was that i was happy enough for you to use it but you should ask as failure to do so can result in payouts from the publisher of the site if permission is not sort.

I can provide an example from today 09/03/07

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/09/yahoo_curry_row/

We shall leave it be.

Thanks

Marc

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we were all victims of a third party who thought they were being helpful,we had no idea that the source of the info was yours,it was sent to chris some time ago,possibly around the time you posted it,we have deleted it from our forum.

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Thanks very much. And thanks for your corrections.

All i was going to say originally was that i was happy enough for you to use it but you should ask as failure to do so can result in payouts from the publisher of the site if permission is not sort.

I can provide an example from today 09/03/07

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/09/yahoo_curry_row/

We shall leave it be.

Thanks

Marc

We are obviously at cross purposes with our research, The Manchester Regiment Group's purpose is to provide information about the soldiers of the regiment not restrict it. I find it strange that you were perfectly happy to use Dave's copies of his war diary ( Dave is a valued member of our group, who was quite happy to provide you with the diaries you asked for) and yet were upset when your transcriptions of Dave's WDs were made public on the group's site

However, prior to your taking legal action, I would suggest you consult a solicitor who is versed in intellectual property law (rather than a moderator of this forum) whether the act of transcribing a document that you didn't write nor belongs to you, gives you copyright over it

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Pals

Please be aware that war diaries are subject to Crown Copyright and the basis for using them (and re-using them) is explained in some detail on the National Archives website. Forum rules (top left of page) are also specific on the subject of copyright of Forum posts

I understand why Marc is peeved. Someone "cut" his post and "pasted" it off to Chris, presumably passing it off as their own transcription. Chris published in good faith and, once made aware of the matter, has deleted it. As Marc has now twice suggested, can we not now "leave this be"?

John

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