Tank Corps Soldiers' Numbers

[Guest Simon Bull]

I am interested in discovering when my grandfather, Arthur Harold James Lincoln, transferred between the Royal Sussex Regiment and the Tank Corps . My reason for wanting to identify the date upon which he changed to the Tank Corps is that I wish to be able to identify the period during which he served with the Royal Sussex Regiment -- i.e. when that period came to an end. When touring the battlefields in May this year I would like to visit the places where he is likely to have fought with the Royal Sussex Regiment.

I should preface my query by saying that his records do not survive. I have searched the National Archives for them and they are not there.

I know that he joined the Royal Sussex Regiment in December 1915. I know that he was in the Tank Corps by the time of the Battle of Arras because he won a Military Medal and Bar serving with the Tank Corps in that Battle.

I suspect that he was not in the Tank Corps at the time of the Battle of the Somme. This is because there is no reference to him in the list of men who served in C Battalion in Trevor Pidgeon's excellent book, although I do realize that Trevor does not claim that he has identified each and every member of the Battalion. In addition, I have reason to believe, from limited family knowledge, that he served as an infantryman in a substantial battle, which makes it likely that he was an infantryman during the Battle of the Somme.

My question is therefore whether there is anyone out there who is an expert on the Tank Corps, and the numbering of its recruits, and can tell me from his Tank Corps number when he is likely to have joined the Tank Corps.

As far as I know, throughout his service with the Tank Corps, he served in C (later Third) Battalion.

His number was 75290.

If it is of any assistance to anybody in answering the question, he was in 11 Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment and his number was 15840.

[delta]

Don't claim to eb an expert but....

He must have transferred fairly early as most of the ASC drivers, who drove the tanks at Flers-Courcellette and rebadged to the MGC (and later to the Tank Corps), were allocated numbers from 75050 onwards whilst some were allocated 77470 onwards.

Stephen

[Guest Simon Bull]

Thanks Stephen that is interesting - perhaps he was in tanks at the Somme after all....

[delta]

That is possible -another option is that he could have been with one of the companies which were not deployed. My own thought (for what it is worth) is that he transferrred in late 1916/early 1917, when the orginal companies were being formed up as battalions at Bovington.

[jim_davies]

Simon,

Can't help much but he's mentioned in a couple of sources I've looked at regarding Stamford's role in the Great War:

1)Stamford and The Great War. "Mobilised 1915-L/Corporal Lincoln, A.H., 3rd Batt Tank Corps, MM & 1914-15 Star". Also listed under "The names of the Prisoners of War entilted to 8 pounds", as "Arthur H.J. Lincoln, 36 St Leonards St." This source is rife with errors..

2)Mentioned in the Stamford Mercury, 17th May 1918. "Among those reported missing are Lance-Corporal H. Lincoln, MM with bar only son of Mrs Slater and the late Mr A.J. Lincoln, Priory terraces..." I know he's not mentioned in the 1915 or 1916 papers, but have not looked in 1917 or later in 1918.

Can't find him in the town's AVL.

Regarding his Sussex service, a while back their was a thread on the forum about Lincs TF transfering to the 11th, 12th and 13th Sussex in July/Aug 1916. These lads had Suzzex numbers similar to your grandfather's. Chris Bailey might be able to add more information.

Jim

[Guest Simon Bull]

Simon,

Can't help much but he's mentioned in a couple of sources I've looked at regarding Stamford's role in the Great War:

1)Stamford and The Great War. "Mobilised 1915-L/Corporal Lincoln, A.H., 3rd Batt Tank Corps, MM & 1914-15 Star". Also listed under "The names of the Prisoners of War entilted to 8 pounds", as "Arthur H.J. Lincoln, 36 St Leonards St." This source is rife with errors..

2)Mentioned in the Stamford Mercury, 17th May 1918. "Among those reported missing are Lance-Corporal H. Lincoln, MM with bar only son of Mrs Slater and the late Mr A.J. Lincoln, Priory terraces..." I know he's not mentioned in the 1915 or 1916 papers, but have not looked in 1917 or later in 1918.

Can't find him in the town's AVL.

Regarding his Sussex service, a while back their was a thread on the forum about Lincs TF transfering to the 11th, 12th and 13th Sussex in July/Aug 1916. These lads had Suzzex numbers similar to your grandfather's. Chris Bailey might be able to add more information.

Jim

Jim thanks for all this. This is all very interesting. Could you give me an author for "Stamford and The Great War"? I would like to try to get hold of a copy. I think the information about his being entitled to a 1914-15 star is wrong. He did not join until very late 1915 and I find it almost inconceivable that he could have been overseas within the relevant dates. Furthermore, we have his medals within the family and they do not include a 1914-15 Star. He did, however, win a Bar to his Militery Medal and it may be that they have in some way become confused about this. The address given is his mother and stepfather's address. His stepfather was in fact called Slator not Slater. It is quite likely that he would have been entitled to money as a Prisoner of War (if any money was going!) As he was taken prisoner at Cachy on 24/4/1918. Do you know if the reference to the entitlement to £8 is a reference to a local fund of some kind?

As far as the press cutting is concerned one of the few items I have relating to his Great War service is a collection of four local press cuttings dealing with the the award of his medals, him being wounded, and his being missing and then found. However, the one that you have referred to is one that I do not have. When I have the time I would like to try to trace the date of some of the articles which I have which have just been clipped out without any note being kept of which newspaper they came from and what the date was.

As far as his service with the Royal Sussex is concerned I am pretty certain that he joined up directly into the Will Sussex. At the time that he joined up (slightly underage) he was working as a teacher as a school in Bognor Regis. Hence he went straight into the Royal Sussex Regiment.

Thank you for posting this information.

[Guest Simon Bull]

Simon,

Can't help much but he's mentioned in a couple of sources I've looked at regarding Stamford's role in the Great War:

1)Stamford and The Great War. "Mobilised 1915-L/Corporal Lincoln, A.H., 3rd Batt Tank Corps, MM & 1914-15 Star". Also listed under "The names of the Prisoners of War entilted to 8 pounds", as "Arthur H.J. Lincoln, 36 St Leonards St." This source is rife with errors..

2)Mentioned in the Stamford Mercury, 17th May 1918. "Among those reported missing are Lance-Corporal H. Lincoln, MM with bar only son of Mrs Slater and the late Mr A.J. Lincoln, Priory terraces..." I know he's not mentioned in the 1915 or 1916 papers, but have not looked in 1917 or later in 1918.

Can't find him in the town's AVL.

Regarding his Sussex service, a while back their was a thread on the forum about Lincs TF transfering to the 11th, 12th and 13th Sussex in July/Aug 1916. These lads had Suzzex numbers similar to your grandfather's. Chris Bailey might be able to add more information.

Jim

Jim thanks for all this. This is all very interesting. Could you give me an author for "Stamford and The Great War"? I would like to try to get hold of a copy. I think the information about his being entitled to a 1914-15 star is wrong. He did not join until very late 1915 and I find it almost inconceivable that he could have been overseas within the relevant dates. Furthermore, we have his medals within the family and they do not include a 1914-15 Star. He did, however, win a Bar to his Militery Medal and it may be that they have in some way become confused about this. The address given is his mother and stepfather's address. His stepfather was in fact called Slator not Slater. It is quite likely that he would have been entitled to money as a Prisoner of War (if any money was going!) As he was taken prisoner at Cachy on 24/4/1918. Do you know if the reference to the entitlement to £8 is a reference to a local fund of some kind?

As far as the press cutting is concerned one of the few items I have relating to his Great War service is a collection of four local press cuttings dealing with the the award of his medals, him being wounded, and his being missing and then found. However, the one that you have referred to is one that I do not have. When I have the time I would like to try to trace the date of some of the articles which I have which have just been clipped out without any note being kept of which newspaper they came from and what the date was.

As far as his service with the Royal Sussex is concerned I am pretty certain that he joined up directly into the Will Sussex. At the time that he joined up (slightly underage) he was working as a teacher as a school in Bognor Regis. Hence he went straight into the Royal Sussex Regiment.

Thank you for posting this information.

[jim_davies]

Simon,

PM me your email address and I'd be haapy to sent you scans of the relevant pages from S&tGW and the newspaper.

The book was written by Markwick and published locally. To be honest apart from a list of fallen and list of men who served, it's not too good for what I'm interested in, although I'm sure others might like it. It mainly deals with life at home, and how the mayor held this garden party and collected this amount of money etc, etc...

Regarding the 8 pounds. At the end of the war the town's POW relief committee, had a certain amount of left over funds. These were distributed being returning POWs with the payment depending on the number of years since capture.

At a later date I intend to look through the 1917 Stamford Mercury, and will keep an eye open for him. Stamford library hold complete archives for the war years. There was a second Stamford paper The Guardian, but as of yet I can't find anywhere that admits to hold their archives!

Jim

[Guest Simon Bull]

Simon,

PM me your email address and I'd be haapy to sent you scans of the relevant pages from S&tGW and the newspaper.

Jim

Many thanks Jim. I have PMed you.

It has just struck me that I made no mention of my grandfather's Stamford connection, but you picked it up - did you just recall seeing him mentioned in books about Stamford? It seems extraordinary (given the number of soldiers who must have come from Stamford) that you remembered him.

[jim_davies]

Hi Simon,

Long story...but here goes

The name, Tank Corps and MM & Bar rang a bell, as did the Sussex number (but that was wrong as it turns out!), so I pulled up my database of men from Stamford who served and matched him up. (It's basically a list generated from S&tGW, the AVL and newspaper reports, nominal rolls etc, checked through the online MICs).

You grandfather's name stands out becuase of his gallantry awards-not many lads from Stamford got any, and even less were awarded two, so I'd always meant to look into his service in more detail. With the Sussex number I thought it was possible he was part of the 4th Lincs, which I've been trying to research-so another connection there.

Jim

[Guest Simon Bull]

Thanks Jim - very nice to know that someone was interested in him.

I think he has one or two claims to fame, viz:

(1) I believe him to be the first person to be awarded two gallantry medals for acts of bravery which occurred whilst the recipient was serving in the Tank Corps.

(2) I would be surprised if he is in fact the youngest, but I have never yet identified any person who was awarded a MM and Bar at a younger age than he was. He was 19 and 4 months at the time of the action in which he won his Bar to his MM.

(3) Arguably, he may well have been in the first ever tank to be completely knocked out (as opposed to significantly damaged but not incapacitated) by another tank, when he was taken prisoner at Cachy on 24/4/1918.

(4) There is an error about him in the Official History. He is (implicitly) recorded as having been killed in the Cachy Incident, when he was not. This has taught me to be a little wary of statements of fact in apparently reputable sources!

As you seem to be studying Stamford's soldiers, if you would like, I could e-mail you a longer account of his service.

[Verrinder Ian]

Hello,

I've just joined the forum and stumbled upon your message. I thought'd I'd reply as the research I'm doing into my Great Uncle seems similar to your own. My Great Uncle was Harry Moon (of Storrington) and his service number was 75915. I have all his papers and they show that he enlisted with the Royal Sussex regiment on 03/09/14. He arrived in France about 25/07/15 and transferred to the Tank Corps in January 1917. He served with A Company of 2nd Battalion (formerly B Battalion) for two years and was demobbed on 23/02/19.

I guess from the number he probably enlisted shortly after your relative.

I'm about to put my request for information onto the forum. If you're into the Tank corps and get a chance could you look at it and see if there's anything you can help me with?

Regards,

[Guest Simon Bull]

Hello,

I've just joined the forum and stumbled upon your message. I thought'd I'd reply as the research I'm doing into my Great Uncle seems similar to your own. My Great Uncle was Harry Moon (of Storrington) and his service number was 75915. I have all his papers and they show that he enlisted with the Royal Sussex regiment on 03/09/14. He arrived in France about 25/07/15 and transferred to the Tank Corps in January 1917. He served with A Company of 2nd Battalion (formerly B Battalion) for two years and was demobbed on 23/02/19.

I guess from the number he probably enlisted shortly after your relative.

I'm about to put my request for information onto the forum. If you're into the Tank corps and get a chance could you look at it and see if there's anything you can help me with?

Regards,

Hello Ian, this is most interesting.

I have just finished spending a period of several days at the National Archives, where, by a process of inference, I concluded that it was likely (although never likely to be provable) that my Grandfather had himself transferred to the Tank Corps in, or about, December 1916-January 1917. I will not go through the entire thought process, but reading the Tank Corps Headquarters records it was apparent that they were recruiting heavily in France at this time and I also looked at officers associated with him at the time of the Battle of Arras and it was apparent that many of them had joined the Tank Corps (usually from other units) in January and February 1917 but had still been sufficiently competent to be in the Battle of Arras in tanks. Interestingly many of them went on training courses after the Battle!

Ian, I would be very interested in knowing a little more about your relative. Do you know which Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment he was in? How do you know that he transferred to the Tank Corps in January 1917 ?

Thanks for telling me about this. It has been very interesting to see my thread revived.

[Verrinder Ian]

Simon,

I've never looked into my Great Uncle's career with the Royal Sussex Regiment; something I really ought to do. However, I have his army papers and they include a letter from his Tank Corps Section Commander. The letter is in the form of a reference for future employment and is dated 20/01/19. The letter contains the following quote:

"This is to certify that No. 75915, Sergeant H. C. Moon, M.M, has served in the Tank Section under my command from January 1917 till date".

I've also just re-read the information given in the medal rolls. It seems to support your belief that the number 7**** was a tank corps number. It gives Harry Moon two service numbers:

R. Sussex. R Pte G/2164

Tank Corps Sjt 75915

On an anecdotal level I've seen in many books and recollections that in about December 1916/January 1917 a recruiting drive for personnel to join the "new branch" was widely publicised within the army. They were after people with experience of motor vehicles. I know from my Great Uncle's perspecitive that this would have appealed because members of our family have said he was involved with motor transport before the war and that he joined Rolls Royce sometime afterwards.

Would the number G/2164 give any clue as to which battalion of the Royal Sussex he joined?

Regards,

Ian.

[delta]

The majority of the original ASC men, who were attached to Hy Branch MGC at Elveden, transferred to the MGC in late 1916/early 1917 as the battalions formed up at Bovington and later rebadged to the Tank Corps. Most were allocated the numbers 75001 to 75200 although there are a few later in a group around 77480.

Stephen

[Guest Simon Bull]

Simon,

I've never looked into my Great Uncle's career with the Royal Sussex Regiment; something I really ought to do. However, I have his army papers and they include a letter from his Tank Corps Section Commander. The letter is in the form of a reference for future employment and is dated 20/01/19. The letter contains the following quote:

"This is to certify that No. 75915, Sergeant H. C. Moon, M.M, has served in the Tank Section under my command from January 1917 till date".

I've also just re-read the information given in the medal rolls. It seems to support your belief that the number 7**** was a tank corps number. It gives Harry Moon two service numbers:

R. Sussex. R Pte G/2164

Tank Corps Sjt 75915

On an anecdotal level I've seen in many books and recollections that in about December 1916/January 1917 a recruiting drive for personnel to join the "new branch" was widely publicised within the army. They were after people with experience of motor vehicles. I know from my Great Uncle's perspecitive that this would have appealed because members of our family have said he was involved with motor transport before the war and that he joined Rolls Royce sometime afterwards.

Would the number G/2164 give any clue as to which battalion of the Royal Sussex he joined?

Regards,

Ian.

Thanks Ian - this is very interesting.

I cannot help you about whether the Royal Sussex number will indicate what Battalion he was in, but if you get hold of his Medal Roll entry that should tell you.

The letter is a super piece of evidence, as identifying exactly when people made transfers of this nature is, in my limited experience, very difficult.

I am not surprised that your Great Uncle had an involvement with motor transport. This seem to have been very common for Tank Corps members, and I believe that my grandfather was a keen motorcyclist. Mechanical aptitude was certainly a necessary part of the job.

I would be very interested if anyone reading this thread was able to confirm my supposition that all men joining the Tank Corps in late 1916 to early 1917 (whatever their Battalion) would have been allocated numbers sequentially.

I have a long term project to see whether I can trace the records of a Tank Corps member with a number very close to my grandfather's (ie within, say, 10 either side) and see if those records shed any light on the date the man in question transferred. Certainly the officers'' records I have seen make the date of transfer clear.

[Guest Simon Bull]

The majority of the original ASC men, who were attached to Hy Branch MGC at Elveden, transferred to the MGC in late 1916/early 1917 as the battalions formed up at Bovington and later rebadged to the Tank Corps. Most were allocated the numbers 75001 to 75200 although there are a few later in a group around 77480.

Stephen

Thanks Stephen - this would appear to be consistent with sequential numbering.

[Verrinder Ian]

Simon,

It's an interesting idea that tank corps numbers were issued sequentially upon transfer to the service.

I've just looked up my Great Uncle's medal citation in the Tank Corps book of honour and the entry above his is for an A/Cpl. E.J. Jupp, whose number is given as 75914. As my Great Uncle's number was 75915 it could be that they joined together or at the same time (by the way the service number given in the citation of my Great Uncle is wrong - as is the name of the town where he won his medal!!).

By way of further connecting these men I can say with some certainty that my Great Uncle was from tank crew B2 (No.1 Section, No.4 Coy) and Jupp was from crew B3 (No.1 Section, No.4 Coy), as I have copies of tank Battle History Sheets from 23/11/17 which give names and crew numbers.

Let me know if you find out anything else along these lines.

Regards,

Ian.

[Chris]

Hi

Very interesting thread which i have just seen tonight. Just to clear up a point from earlier in the topic, 15840 was not part of the Lincs to Sussex transfer.

Numbers 15302 - 15332 are all 4th Lincs to 13th Sussex, then there is a gap until number 15342. Then numbers 15342 through to 15468 are all 5th Lincs men transferred to 12th Sussex

Regards

Chris

PS: Jim as soon as i database this group i will get it emailed to you

[Verrinder Ian]

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread regarding Tank Corps service numbers.

I've just ploughed my way through various sources and come up with the following numbering pattern:

75913 C.Bazeley Pte.

75914 E. J. Jupp MM Cpl.

75915 Harry Moon MM Sgt. (R.Sussex No:G/2164)

75916

75917 Albert Wright Cpl. (R. Sussex No:3828) KIA: 22/03/18

75918 George Powell Pte. (R. Sussex No.1864) KIA: 31/07/17

75919 F.C. Gilder MM L/Cpl.

75920 Arthur Bates Pte. (R. Sussex No: 2374) KIA: 23/11/17

The pattern starts to show that a number of Royal Sussex men transferred to the Tank Corps and were given sequential service numbers. Furthermore, the Royal Sussex Regiment service number range of these men appears most in the (death roll) records of the 8th Battalion.

Can anybody fill in any of the gaps? Or has anybody got any thoughts on the matter?

Regards,

Ian.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread regarding Tank Corps service numbers.

I've just ploughed my way through various sources and come up with the following numbering pattern:

75913 C.Bazeley Pte.

75914 E. J. Jupp MM Cpl.

75915 Harry Moon MM Sgt. (R.Sussex No:G/2164)

75916

75917 Albert Wright Cpl. (R. Sussex No:3828) KIA: 22/03/18

75918 George Powell Pte. (R. Sussex No.1864) KIA: 31/07/17

75919 F.C. Gilder MM L/Cpl.

75920 Arthur Bates Pte. (R. Sussex No: 2374) KIA: 23/11/17

The pattern starts to show that a number of Royal Sussex men transferred to the Tank Corps and were given sequential service numbers. Furthermore, the Royal Sussex Regiment service number range of these men appears most in the (death roll) records of the 8th Battalion.

Can anybody fill in any of the gaps? Or has anybody got any thoughts on the matter?

Regards,

Ian.

Out of interest the missing one is :-

75916 Frank Arthur Parish (Pte R. Sussex G/2237), Tank Corps - corporal, later 2nd Lieut - Tank Corps.

[Verrinder Ian]

Thanks Jim,

I've since be up to the PRO and found that all of the men listed above were from the Royal Sussex Regiment. My Great Uncle was definately 8th Sussex (Pioneers) and I suspect that the rest were too. The 8th R.Suss. R war diary states that 2/Lt W.E. King left to join the Heavy Branch M.G.C on 31/12/16 - I suspect the O.R. went with him but it doesn't say.

Here's the completed list:

75913 C.Bazeley Pte. (G/1817 states 8th Bn on MIC)

75914 E. J. Jupp MM Cpl. (G/1795)

75915 Harry Moon MM Sgt. (R.Sussex No:G/2164)

75916 Frank Parrish (G/2337) (later 2/Lt)

75917 Albert Wright Cpl. (R. Sussex No.3828) KIA: 22/03/18

75918 George Powell Pte. (R. Sussex No.1864) KIA: 31/07/17

75919 F.C. Gilder MM L/Cpl. (G/2323 states 8th Bn on MIC)

75920 Arthur Bates Pte. (R. Sussex G/2374) KIA: 23/11/17

[husher1917]

My grandfather's notes state that he spent two years in trench warfare with the 1st battalion, Sherwood Foresters, #14142 (Landed in France Jan/1915). He transferred to the Tank Corps in Dec/1916 or Jan/1917 due to his mechanical training prior to entering the war.

He was given a new number 77047 and was assigned to "A" battalion HBMGC. His note’s state that he was in action at Messines, Wytshaete, and Hill 60. His notes state that at one point, he was part of Major Bingham’s “special duties, which were duly washed out”. Major the Hon. J D Y Bingham commanded a special Tank Corps detachment, based on the French coast near Merlimont, who were supposed to play a significant part in the abortive Hush Operation of 1917. The special battalion returned to England to become the core of the 16th battalion of the tank corps.

I know he was a tank driver as I still have the tank mask he was issued, as well as all his medals and several original badges. He returned to England in late 1917 and become a physical fitness and bayonet instructor at Portsmouth. I have a picture of his graduating class (attached) for bayonet instructors taken March 22, 1918. He returned to France in summer 1918 and saw action with the 16th battalion around St. Quentin/Draucourt in August. Alexander stayed in France until the armistice, was discharged in March, 1919 as a Sgt, 1st class. He states that he worked with the air corps in France after discharge and also worked with Leyland motors returning spare parts to England. He sailed to Canada in 1920, where he lived until he passed away in 1981 at the age of 85.

He was Alexander John Richardson and he was a hero to me.

[delta]

welcome husher1917;

can you tell us more his service at Messines

[husher1917]

welcome husher1917;

can you tell us more his service at Messines

I wish I could find more detail. The notes I have from my grandfather states he was in action at "Hill 60, Messines, Wytschaete". I have obtained the war diary and the battalion history for "A" battalion, HBMGC for the time I know he was with the battalion(from Jan/17 - June-July/17). His battalion was to the left side of the main force (Wytschaete and the ridge) and there is much detail in the battalion history about individual tanks and map locations, but does not mention drivers or many NCO's.

Does anyone know where more details can be found about who was in which tank?

Regards,

John.