Glory Hole to Disappear?

[willy]

Andy

I was only trying to make the point that there is very little left like the glory hole, the vast majority of the area has quite rightly been reinstated, I strongly feel that as this is one of the last "preserved" areas it is worth trying to save.

I doubt if there is a shortage of suitable ground on which to build in the area.

I certainly would not endorse any "ranting" in any media coverage, however as pointed out earlier ,time does not appear to be on the side of preserving the site.

Andy tell me where i made any reference to the "ungrateful french".

[Guest KevinEndon]

It may be on French soil but it is OUR HISTORY. The government should go in with all guns blazing to protect this area of National Heritage.

Things need doing and need doing now but who is going to start the ball rolling.

Kevin

[willy]

It may be on French soil but it is OUR HISTORY. The government should go in with all guns blazing to protect this area of National Heritage.

Things need doing and need doing now but who is going to start the ball rolling.

Kevin

[Hope it's still there when we go in march !/ willyquote]

[PBI]

Sorry to sound Negative about the Glory Hole being Developed,but if the prospect of it being Built on has shocked many of us on the Forum,why wasnt the Land Purchased Years Ago,like the La Boiselle Crater ???

[Max]

Andy tell me where i made any reference to the "ungrateful french".

I inferred that that would be the approach of the ever so balanced Daily Mail, not you.

[Max]

It may be on French soil but it is OUR HISTORY. The government should go in with all guns blazing to protect this area of National Heritage.

Using that approach you are staring failure in the face. Just imagine if you wanted to sell off a piece of land in England and some Frenchman came screaming at you whacking on about French national heritage, you would tell him where to get off. Proper and considered negotiation with the owner and local authority is the only way forward, and then someone is going to have to put a considerable amount of money where their mouth is......care to donate?

PBI--Well said

Andy

[willy]

Andy i don't know what slant the daily mail would put on the subject, Ionly read the grumpy old mans paper the Times.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Andy i don't know what slant the daily mail would put on the subject, Ionly read the grumpy old mans paper the Times.

You read what.... I ain't coming to the Somme with someone that intal,,,,,, intelex,,,,,,, clever lol.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Do you think the French government would allow a bunch of Brits buy their land. What it will take is a Frenchman to buy the land and sell square yards of land to those who care.

[Max]

Do you think the French government would allow a bunch of Brits buy their land. What it will take is a Frenchman to buy the land and sell square yards of land to those who care.

So there are no Brits living in France?, there are hundreds of thousands with property in France. What has it got to do with the French government?

[willy]

Kevin, there would be no problem anyone buying from outside France, however the price might just be a little more.

The problem is does the current owner want to sell? or would he rather just get on and develope it.

There are several sites in the area owned by non french, Newfoundland park, Lochnagar, Butte de Walencourt, Mouquet farm, all preserved sites all non french, some purchased after the war, some more recently so it can happen.

[Paul Reed]

Sorry to sound Negative about the Glory Hole being Developed,but if the prospect of it being Built on has shocked many of us on the Forum,why wasnt the Land Purchased Years Ago,like the La Boiselle Crater ???

Hi Russell - very good point, but the reality is a little more complex. Richard Dunning did think about that back in the 70s, but for whatever reason didn't go ahead. Of course 30-odd years ago there were few visitors to the Somme, and Richard could never have guessed at the interest we have today - none of us could, really. Since that time the ground we see as The Glory Hole has been owned by at least several people, and it has not been available to buy until recently - and then that sale was not made public, so interested parties such as ourselves have not been in a position to do anything about it.

Forum members will probably not be aware of the huge growth in land sale and property development on the Somme - and that many development companies are directly approaching people with big bucks to buy land for houses: and this is what has - apparently - happened here. We have seen the average building plot rise from around 5000-7500 Euros to more than 30,000 in only a few years. The number of houes going up is staggering; I have seen six built here in Courcelette in two years; in a village of less than 140 people that is quite some growth, and it is happening all over.

There are possibly many reasons for this: one, I fear, is that we now have a potential international airport on the Somme: again most of you will not be aware of this. A huge runway has been built at the Meautle aerospace factory for the Airbus programme. Local speculation is that when this project ends, the airport will become another Lille/Beauvais: it certainly has the basic infrastucture for that and there is a 'belt' around it for potential development. And of course this would change the Somme we know now very much indeed.

While I agree, being a French landowner myself, that we cannot preserve everything and people should be free to pursue their lives, what I fear is that if we build on one of the last of the less than a dozen sites still in their 1919 state (and which are not open to the public or have open access) it will open the way for development around any future airport site and see many famous haunts disappear complete - and the 'texture' of the Somme change forever in a way that I think the majority of forum members would not want.

There are already people actively working to save this site, and others have been beavering away in the background looking for sources of funding to buy it (because, as has been rightly said here and in France - put up or shut up), but we were all under the impression that there wasn't a tight timescale. Now there is, and I fear that no-one will be able to meet it, and the site will be lost... and then, what next?

[Chris_Baker]

Paul - what is the price the landlord is after, do you know?

[Paul Reed]

Paul - what is the price the landlord is after, do you know?

Chris - again, this is where it gets complex. There are at least two possibly three plus building plots. The one where work has started, which you recently saw, is the one directly concerned with the re-instatement of planning permission. I know what they paid for the site, and what they must have paid the building firm, which would already put any value for their plot alone into six figures. Then there would be the other plot(s) - so we could be talking an awful lot of money for the whole site we see as 'The Glory Hole'.

[Rob Gray]

I can agree with Paul about the rapid pace of housing development in the Somme area, being a regular visitor myself, I'm surprised how the area has "taken off" over the last couple of years, with new houses popping up in the most unlikely places.

I'm not too sure about the Airbus runway ending up as a major international airport, as it's too far from any major town, and the Autoroute links in and out of the area are not good, still, time will tell.

I'm in the La Boiselle area next weekend, so I'll take some pics of the current state of development at the Glory Hole and post them on the forum for other Pals to see.

Rob.

[PBI]

Hi Russell - very good point, but the reality is a little more complex. Richard Dunning did think about that back in the 70s, but for whatever reason didn't go ahead. Of course 30-odd years ago there were few visitors to the Somme, and Richard could never have guessed at the interest we have today - none of us could, really. Since that time the ground we see as The Glory Hole has been owned by at least several people, and it has not been available to buy until recently - and then that sale was not made public, so interested parties such as ourselves have not been in a position to do anything about it.

Forum members will probably not be aware of the huge growth in land sale and property development on the Somme - and that many development companies are directly approaching people with big bucks to buy land for houses: and this is what has - apparently - happened here. We have seen the average building plot rise from around 5000-7500 Euros to more than 30,000 in only a few years. The number of houes going up is staggering; I have seen six built here in Courcelette in two years; in a village of less than 140 people that is quite some growth, and it is happening all over.

There are possibly many reasons for this: one, I fear, is that we now have a potential international airport on the Somme: again most of you will not be aware of this. A huge runway has been built at the Meautle aerospace factory for the Airbus programme. Local speculation is that when this project ends, the airport will become another Lille/Beauvais: it certainly has the basic infrastucture for that and there is a 'belt' around it for potential development. And of course this would change the Somme we know now very much indeed.

While I agree, being a French landowner myself, that we cannot preserve everything and people should be free to pursue their lives, what I fear is that if we build on one of the last of the less than a dozen sites still in their 1919 state (and which are not open to the public or have open access) it will open the way for development around any future airport site and see many famous haunts disappear complete - and the 'texture' of the Somme change forever in a way that I think the majority of forum members would not want.

There are already people actively working to save this site, and others have been beavering away in the background looking for sources of funding to buy it (because, as has been rightly said here and in France - put up or shut up), but we were all under the impression that there wasn't a tight timescale. Now there is, and I fear that no-one will be able to meet it, and the site will be lost... and then, what next?

Thanks for this information Paul,i am sure that many of us were totally unaware of the Facts that you have bought to light.Please keep us all informed.Warm Regards Russ.

[Desmond7]

Much as I would like to see this site preserved 'as is' .... I note the observations of the 'man on the ground' that the sands of time are running out for any truly meaningful financial appeal. Sad but I would say a fairly accurate summation of affairs.

Thus, perhaps the best that can be done is an extensive photo/video recordof the site at present?

Those who know the battle details for this site could contribute by way of authentic trench maps/stories of men who fought there/etc etc

Perhaps .. and I may be in the realms of wishful thinking here ... such a record could be fairly cheaply compiled in the form of a CD? I for one would certainly consider the purchase of such a CD ... and perhaps some percentage of the monies raised could be used to start a 'covenant fund' which would be in place for future problems.

I am well aware that we would be talking peanuts in financial terms but maybe it could be the spur for members of organisations like the WFA (of which I have only very limited knowledge) to set up a 'Battlefield Preservation Fund'.

Such a fund, well managed (with the potential for bequested gifts etc...sorry to be morbid) could grow into something worthwhile. Many grants are available on a percentage funding basis. Thus if such a Preservation Fund could be built up over a ???? year period to (for instance) £10,000 ... that could be used to deliver a further £10,000 worth of grants on a matching basis.

What's £20,000 I hear you say? Well if such a fund had existed a few years ago .. it would have bought four Glory Holes at the prices in those days.

Worth consideration. Might be all pie in the sky but just a thought or two.

[Paul Reed]

I'm not too sure about the Airbus runway ending up as a major international airport, as it's too far from any major town, and the Autoroute links in and out of the area are not good, still, time will tell.

Rob.

Hi Rob - well, Albert is on the main Paris - Lille line, which could easily be extended for TGV. Indeed, a new TGV spur line could be built from near Bapaume or Arras. Plus there are easy motorway links via the nearby A1 to most of France. I would say it is an ideal site! That's what worries me, as a resident and also a battlefield visitor.

[Paul Reed]

Des - the WFA had a battlefield fund which at once stage stood at more than £10K. But it has been gradually dissolved by spending on the Butte de Warlencourt, which the WFA bought around ?1990 and I understand at one stage wished to sell because of the hassle it has given them. Whatever, I suspect it means they would not be interested in acquiring land in France again.

[Desmond7]

Paul - as stated, my knowledge of WFA is ... errrr .. virtually non-existent!

However, you do raise a very serious question.

If the Warlencourt experience has not only drained the WFA funds AND inflicted all manner of hassle on them .. what was learned from that experience which can be brought to bear on other battlefield preservation scenarios?

And what exactly was the hassle?

[Paul Reed]

Des - you would have to ask the WFA about that.

There would indeed be 'hassle' in making this or any site open to the public, but with hard work and some imagination this could be overcome.

[ianw]

Well if the Glory Hole is effectively beyond saving, we might wish to consider urgently (and secretly?) what could realistically be bought for £20k or so today. Am I right in assuming that we might consider looking outside of the villages on the basis that building planning permission would not be so easily obtainable for somewhere in a more isolated area on the Somme. Therefore, in theory, the land price should be lower.

I would still expect some price inflation the moment a local land owner discovers that the roast beefs are interested, but double price for a piece of purely agricultural land could still be manageable.

In view of the WFA experience with the B de W, perhaps we should avoid anything with a feature more than 5m high or 5m deep ! As a by the by, did it make sense for the WFA to buy a feature that is protected because of its archeological significance anyway and never in danger of being demolished?

Question - What place/feature etc would we be most distressed to hear was being built on next?

I wonder if funding might be forthcoming from a charitable trust somewhere? A UK trust has just provided $3.3million to buy the Upham VC and Bar. A tenth of that amount could buy something really significant.

[Desmond7]

And there we hit the bullseye of this issue.

I have imagination, not scared of hard work, am short of cash ... if an organisation such as WFA is 'once bitten twice shy' on purchase/maintenance of such sites, does anyone have a realistic suggestion as to what can be set up/or even joined up with .. to give any future campaigns an even chance in such circumstances?

Perhaps this matter should be debated within the branches of the WFA?

I would debate it in my branch but I have to get around to forming one over here!

[Paul Reed]

Ian - I am not sure it is beyond saving, because the All Parties War Graves committee are still active on this subject; but without a quick injection of cash, then I am not sure what any outcome will be.

As for what you could get for £20K, even outside a village; probably not much. Most other well preserved sites are in woodland, which attracts a much higher value than farmland or even building sites in villages.

[Paul Reed]

Des, I am not convinced the WFA has the will, expertise or committment - or infrastructure - to be a major player in this sort of project. It is a volntary organisation and not a structured organisation with full time employees. Committee members come and go, and not all of them have ever been to the Somme. I cannot see them getting involved in anything like this, and as I say you would need to speak to them about problems with the Butte.