Glory Hole to Disappear?

[ianw]

Yes, Paul, you have told me about the value of woodland before and I had forgotten just how much the French value their hunting. And of course the woods have preserved much.

Given that we have been surprised by the good state of preservation of features under open ground e.g at Serre I seem to recall, should be be thinking about what might be semi-forgotten below our feet out there?

[Paul Reed]

I suppose we should Ian, which is why groups like No Mans Land exist, but taking that angle the work would be almost endless. And not to everyones liking.

[Chris Noble]

Well, if we thought the threat to the site was imminent, and lets face it, we knew it was going to happen after initial building permission was granted, something should have happened. I am in the dark as to what is happening in the 'sidelines' discussion etc over the site, but, who is discussing what? Whats the WFA doing, what is their input into the matter.

Maybe we should have taken a leaf from the Somme Association. They acted early, received a grant, now Thiepval Wood is safe.

Well, next time pals when you take your kids to the Somme, you can say:

"When Daddy was here there was some tangible remnants of a most viscious war that nobody ever got a look at, a war underground, people are still under your feet".

Answer; " But Daddy it looks like a row of Wimpy Houses at home"?

And when its gone, you seasoned 'Battlefield Tourists', look at your photos and remember, aye, remember, cos thats all you have, memories.

Regards, Chris.

[Paul Reed]

Chris - as far as I am aware, WFA have had no involvement in this. As for why, you would have to ask them. I would add we only discovered this was going to happen back in January, and there was a very quick reaction which managed to stop work at a very early stage. As I understand it, the next stage was to involve consultation over what could be done with the site, and the current decision has taken everyone by surprise. This has left little time to react, and is not the fault of anyone involved in trying to save the site. To be honest, no-one could have forseen current events taking this course considering the noises coming from local authorities and interested parties.

Plus of course not everyone agrees with preserving this and other sites, clearly seen by comments in this thread.

[Max Poilu]

As Paul will know (and maybe not others perhaps so familiar with the area) and from discussions in the other forum Ovillers has expanded at an incredible rate. I have always stayed in a house in the village when visiting France and have watched the changes as they happen.

The 'middle' road in used to be completely devoid of houses except for the junction with the main village street - then one was erected in the middle, then another and another until last year there were six new houses and unsubtly the entire road will be housing before too long. At the other (Pozieres) end by the water tower the land will also be developed as the town pushes out it's boundaries. It is obvious that the mayor of Ovillers la Boisselle is keen to see 'his' village expand. And the same in Courcelette as noted above - a huge increase of housing in percentage terms.

Nothing wrong with this of course and we must all be sympathetic of their position - this talk of 'the French' is silly, many (the majority) of the locals have no interest or real knowledge of the war and just want to get on and prosper - they would not take kindly to the Brits telling them how to live their lives. I think we must all accept that like Ypres and indeed in rural England the pressure for housing in certain places can not be abated whether we like it or not.

For our children's children many of the views we take for granted today will perhaps be lost. It is obvious that the Glory Hole is going to be just one of many historical battle sites under threat in the years to come.

I suggested to Paul that we have to be realistic and perhaps a funding option would be to develop the land 'ourselves' ie try and buy the entire Glory Hole plot, build one house alone at one end and utilise the profits of the sale to finance the original land purchase. The exact economics of this would need to be examined but an outright purchase of the entire plot with no financial return would be perhaps rather unrealistic. Better to have one sacrificial development to secure the majority of the plot than lose the whole area.

Paul - you noted in January: Just as an update, thanks to Jon Haslock who lives in la Boisselle, the photo below shows they are aiming to build from the edge of the next housing plot to the edge of the craters - thus not on the craters themselves. While not brilliant news, it does mean the whole site will not - for now - be built on. But it does mean development is gradually encoaching on it. More news when I have it.

Is this still the current situation (following on from buildng work being halted)?

[Chris Noble]

Thanks for keeping us all informed Paul, much appreciated.

Regards, Chris.

[egbert]

Its a free forum with (almost) free right of speech:

what is all the fuzz about the Glory Hole?

There are hundreds/thousands of locations like the Glory hole. There are Glory holes from fighting between the Germans and British, Glory holes from fighting between German- French, German- Belgium and so on and so on.

After more than 90 years people and countries want to develop; the Flemish have a right and the French have a right to do so to include the former battlefield. If you would consider everything sacrosanct where heroic world war i and II battles were fought and bodies are still buried today, Europe would look like an underdeveloped landscape. Dresden and Coventry, Flanders and Berlin, Huertgenwald and Seelower Heights, Marketgarden area and Stalingrad would effectively look like hell ( thanks God the Germans were not able to conquer the British Island in WW II, imagine the hundreds of Glory holes on GB soil).

If somebody wants to preserve these areas -fine they had the chance since 90 years to buy the land. The opportunities are gone now and the local people want to prosper -it is the will of the majority there.

So let it happen or put the money on the table. This was not done in the last 90 years- so stop whining around and carry on with life. We, the small WWI interested community can remember without the Glory hole.

My post shall not be considered offensive or gleeful, it is purely an opinion amongst many others

[ianw]

With respect Egbert, it is not for you to decide whether other Forum users might consider your post to be "offensive or gleeful". I for one do find some of your postings somewhat abrasive in tone e.g some of your recent postings on the subject of suggested British destruction of German memorials. I make due allowance for the fact that you are not posting in your native language.

I do not agree with your contention that there are thousands of sites equivalent in importance to the Glory Hole - neither does Paul Reed who is a Great War historian of some eminence

That said, I do agree with you that there must be other sites which are very deserving of preservation. I also agree that local people have a right to pursue their own aims in respect of their land. However, while doing so, they should consider carefully which historic sites they are obliterating. This would seem eminently sensible as the majority of tourist euros spent on the Somme come from Great War visitors. Few go for the cuisine or the beaches.

[Paul Reed]

Paul - you noted in January: Just as an update, thanks to Jon Haslock who lives in la Boisselle, the photo below shows they are aiming to build from the edge of the next housing plot to the edge of the craters - thus not on the craters themselves. While not brilliant news, it does mean the whole site will not - for now - be built on. But it does mean development is gradually encoaching on it. More news when I have it.

Is this still the current situation (following on from buildng work being halted)?

Since I wrote that it now transpires that the whole area along the road has been sold and divided up into seperate plots, which naturally means the craters in this area will be affected. It is not clear whether the planning extends into the ground towards Becourt, which would mean the loss of further craters in that area as well.

[uncle bill]

I have just, in all innocence, googled 'Glory Hole', oh lordy, pass me the smelling salts.

[Paul Reed]

Its a free forum with (almost) free right of speech:

what is all the fuzz about the Glory Hole?

There are hundreds/thousands of locations like the Glory hole.

Egbert - I know of only one other site on the Somme similar to the Glory Hole, and personally I would like to see something done there as well because generally this level of preservation at ground level is quite rare outside of woodland.

I can sadly say I knew other sites like the Glory Hole in the Somme region, but they have all disappeared in the nearly three decades I have been visiting the area.

[egbert]

Paul, i know and as a WWI addict by myself I wish from my heart that some interesting parts are saved for the future. But my point here was/is: nobody can blame the Frenchies to build their homes on top of this particular piece of land, called Glory hole by the British. 90 years have been passed with no British group being capable of buying this land. The consequence is that the locals have all my sympathies to develop this land nowadays. I believe the British are the only group that is -let me say- interested to preserve certain land where their ancestors fought. So this Glory hole is lost opportunity, and now look forward to the future -put money on the table and check out what other sites at Somme are worthwhile to be protected and -even more important- which are still affordable

I still say: there are too many Glory holes alone in the Somme area. You guys must accept that the locals earlier or later will develop the sites. Act now, collect funds, concentrate on something affordable and buy it soon before it is too late.

I wish you guys much luck

[Paul Reed]

Egbert - you need to read my earlier postings to see how it was not possible for any group or individual to be in a position to buy this land; otherwise you will continue with this misconception that we are all whining and not prepared to buy: we have to be in a position to buy in the first place.

Also I would love to know where all these others sites are and how they have escaped my notice, and indeed the notice of many others.

[egbert]

.... we have to be in a position to buy in the first place.

Also I would love to know where all these others sites are and how they have escaped my notice, and indeed the notice of many others.

Paul, if there are no more sites worthwhile to protect which have the importance of the Glory hole than that's it. So the Glory hole is lost and no future worries anymore.

Maybe I was wrong, I thought there are many sites important enough to be preserved provided available funding.

[willy]

[What a post, why are we all getting so upset by the demise of the Glory Hole, we must start negotiations without delay with Egbert, he knows of thousands of locations like the glory hole.

[Pete1052]

Enthusiasts of the American Civil War are prone to getting indignant whenever development threatens an historic Civil War site. What many of them seem to forget is that no country in the world has ever preserved battlefields the way America has. To use Washington D.C. as an example, within easy driving distance are National Park Service battlefield parks at Manassas Virginia, Sharpsburg, Maryland, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and Fredericksburg/Chancellorsville/Spotsylvania, Virginia. If absolute perfection were to be the goal in the preservation of historic Civil War sites, major parts of Virginia would have to off limits to development. Life goes on, and people need places to live.

[Chris_Baker]

I can give some insight into the difficulties experienced by the Western Front Association after it acquired the Butte de Warlencourt site. My experience was from the seven years that I spent on the WFA's management committee. I don't think I am betraying any confidences here.

There were three principal difficulties:

1. The site is easily overgrown. Unlike the Glory Hole, the Butte is covered in tree and bush growth. These things grow, mask the shape of the Butte and in particular deny the view from the top. Organising reasonably frequent cutting back of the growth was a difficult taks to manage. Volunteers did it; then we tried local contractors without great satisfaction, etc.

2. Access and personal safety risk. As the years passed, this became an increasing problem. There is a remote possibility of someone getting blown sky-high by 90 year old ordnance, but much more likely is a trip or fall. We put in steps and paths, we took out more insurance etc - but again a niggling problem.

3. Vandalism. Signs were forever being stolen or vandalised and replcement became another job to do and quite costly. Eventually a border fence was erected - partly at least to deny encroachment from neighbouring farmers.

While none of this costs millions or is hard to do, it becomes so for a volunatry organisation in the UK rather than on the ground in France.

I have not been involved at that level in WFA for some years now and do not know what the feeling would be about another acquisition, but frankly on the Butte experience I am not sure it would be rushed into.

[Mick D]

Chris,

I heard a rumour that the WFA are trying to get rid of the Butte site for the reasons you mention ( in particular to litigation from a fall/accident) so I would guess they would not wish to take on another risk !

Mick D

[Pete1052]

About two years ago a golf course not far from where I live was forced by its insurance company to topple the remaining masonry walls of an old farmhouse that had been prominent during the battle of Summit Point, West Virginia, in 1864 in the Civil War. Summit Point was less than a major battle but more than a skirmish in the Shenandoah Valley Campaign between the forces of Gen. Phil Sheridan (U.S.) and Gen. Jubal Early (C.S.).

The problem the golf course had was that trespassers and souvenir-hunters kept visiting the ruins in spite of signs telling them to keep out. The old bullet-riddled walls would sway in the breeze and there was fear that one day they would topple onto somebody. The insurance company quoted high rates, so the structure was razed and a marker was put on the site. If I recall correctly shortly thereafter the company owning the golf course went into receivership because of its precarious financial situation.

[egbert]

Egbert - you need to read my earlier postings to see how it was not possible for any group or individual to be in a position to buy this land; otherwise you will continue with this misconception that we are all whining and not prepared to buy: we have to be in a position to buy in the first place.

Also I would love to know where all these others sites are and how they have escaped my notice, and indeed the notice of many others.

Paul, if there are no more sites worthwhile to protect which have the importance of the Glory hole than that's it. So the Glory hole is lost and no future worries anymore.

Maybe I was wrong, I thought there are many sites important enough to be preserved provided available funding.

Here is an example of another site

[Paul Reed]

Egbert as I explained to you before, I was not including sites in woodland, which this current site is. Sites in woodland generally are less likely to be affected except by replantation. And that has happened only infrequently on the Somme.

Of course almost every wooded area on the Somme contains trenches and other WW1 remains. But the importance of the Glory Hole is that it is not already preserved by a canopy, and has remained in open fields. There are very, very few sites remaining like that.

[egbert]

Paul relax, i am totally with you, t'was a teaser in the sense of "rattling the cage"

[Paul Reed]

Ok, no worries.

[Rob Gray]

This photo was taken in Feb '06, before any building work had commenced: (click images to see full size)

This photo was taken at the end of November '06, the bulk excavation of the basement has been completed, but nothing else appears to have happened.

The next photo is a warning to the midnight metal detecting morons, I'm sure they all took careful note:

[ragamuffin]

Is there an update on this?

Danke.