Aisne- Chemin des Dames Battle May- June 1918

[Lis]

On 29/11/2020 at 20:59, David_Blanchard said:

This is a trench map included in the 150th Brigade War Diary. It is worth downloading the diary from the National Archives.

That map is great! Ive now found out exactly where the various companies were. I'm intrigued by that front line trench though - it looks to be incomplete with a black line rather than the red trench mapping. Why would that be? Was the front line trench incomplete? From what I understand, the black lines are often designated 'piste' on French maps, which means track, or path. Was some of the front line literally a shallow trackway with no real protection, or is piste another word for a particular type of trench? And where would I find the information about exactly which company he would have been in? 

Thanks

 

[Steve Gerrard]

Hi David,

I realise it's over a year since the last post on this thread, but I just wanted to say how interesting and helpful it has been for researching my great-grandfather, Alexander Gerrard, who was a Gunner with the Royal Garrison Artillery (Service no. 95324). He enlisted in Aberdeen in November 1915. He was posted missing on the 27th May and it was later confirmed that he was taken as a prisoner of war and held in Trelon. He later died on 17th August that year, but no cause of death was given. From the CWGC, I learned he's buried in Glageon Cemetery - and by sheer luck came across a photo of his gravestone from one of the few photos of the cemetery online. From his service record, he was assigned to the 26th Heavy Battery and I believe that was in the 77th Heavy Artillery Group/Brigade from Dec 17 onwards. I'm not clear, though, which of the four divisions at Chemin des Dame the 77th was part of. Do you have any idea - or am I completely on the wrong track? It would be helpful to aid my understanding of where his battery may have been positioned in the sector.

Also, I've ordered your book and I'm very much looking forward to it. It sounds like an almighty impressive body of research.

Here's the only photo of Alexander we have, which comes from a newspaper clipping in Aberdeen:

Best wishes

Steve

Edited 6 December , 2021 by Steve Gerrard

[Kilo]

I'm new to this site and searched for Aisne as I recently found that my Great Grand Uncle Sapper Fred Wilshaw died on the first day of this battle and I'm heading out to the Cimetière militaire britannique in Hermonville, just North of Reims in two weeks time to pay my respects (I've already found a photo of his gravestone). I haven't even read this thread yet and look forward to doing so but wondered how easy it is to find out any further info on what may have happened to him or whether that sort of detail is lost.

I have visited the Mulberry harbour before (on a trip to Le Mans) which sparked some interest before I knew of my relatives involvement.

[Michelle Young]

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Aisne-1918-ePub/p/11432

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aisne-1918-Battleground-Books-WWI-ebook/dp/B0133WGGIG

Welcome to the Forum. @David_Blanchard has published on the Aisne 1918 battles, links to books above. 
You may not be aware but approximately 60% of Great War service records were lost during the Blitz. Any surviving records can be found on pay per view sites such as Ancestry and Find My Past. 
Relevant War diaries can be downloaded for free from the National Archives website after you register. 

[Kilo]

3 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Aisne-1918-ePub/p/11432

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aisne-1918-Battleground-Books-WWI-ebook/dp/B0133WGGIG

Welcome to the Forum. @David_Blanchard has published on the Aisne 1918 battles, links to books above. 
You may not be aware but approximately 60% of Great War service records were lost during the Blitz. Any surviving records can be found on pay per view sites such as Ancestry and Find My Past. 
Relevant War diaries can be downloaded for free from the National Archives website after you register. 

Thanks Michelle,

I'm just having a read of

http://www.4thbnnf.com/wordpress/sectors-battles/the-lys/

which is interesting.

I started looking into stuff when I got the deeds to my house and started researching the previous owners so signed up to Ancestry then. I found that both sons of a previous owner died in WWI and decided I wanted to go and pay my respects but then started to look into my own family only to find Sapper Fred which has now taken over. Looks like I'm going to have a lot of reading before I head over there.

[john metcalfe]

Finally managed to visit the memorial in Soissons during our ride from Yorkshire to Tunisia on our 1994 BMW K1100. Due to time constraints didn't have time to visit the main areas of the 1918 battle but we are planning to return at some point in the near future to spend more time in the area and travel around the areas where my great uncle was when he was KIA and is mentioned on the memorial.

It was a rather emotional visit, as brief as it was as I had with me his bible that was subsequently passed to his younger sister, my nanna. The eerie thing about the visit was that given the size of the memorial and the number of panels as we entered I went straight to the panel where his regiments loses are mentioned and looked straight at his name which is located near the top of the panel, also when I opened the register of names I again went straight to the page where he is listed.

[weshallremember]

remembering 59935 pte percy bowker 5th northumberland fusiliers k i a 27th may 1918 aged 19

[Howard]

13 hours ago, weshallremember said:

remembering 59935 pte percy bowker 5th northumberland fusiliers k i a 27th may 1918 aged 19

Indeed. There are some good maps of that area on TrenchMapper. If you right click, choose Map ID Jump and enter m_028070 you will see a good example.

Alternatively, use Advanced Search, check Modern Places and enter Pontavert. Then browse the selection of maps available in the left panel.

A meaningful area for me as well, my grandfather was made PoW at 49.431880, 3.863021 on 27th May 1918 along with most 2/Middlesex who were not killed.

To see a lat/lon point, right click and choose Lat/Lon Jump

Howard

[agooner]

I seek more regarding Lt Walter BIGG, 8th Durham Light Infantry died 27 May 1918 Apparently buried by the Germans at Berry au Bac and the map ref is 293.1.x.213.9 which of course is not the UK military map reference. He is not on the IRCross list of PoWs so seemingly they just found his body. So far failed to find details for 8th DLI on 27th May. Any clues as to how I may use the map reference would be most helpful

 

Thanks in advance

Tony

[Howard]

For Berry au Bac, that map reference looks back to front.

The two numbers are kilometres and should be Easting first, so the bend in the road near Berry au Bac in the first map fragment is at 221.7, 296.4.

If that assumption is right, for Berry au Bac your reference would be 213.9, 293.1 and place it West of Roucy as per the second map. MInd you, that is stil 9,353 yards from Berry au Bac, (measurable using the TrenchMapper distance and bearing tool.) For that point, in TrenchMapper, right click and choose Lat/Lon Jump and use 49.369596, 3.792736, or put the British map reference in the left panel 76.N.12.d.14.52 and click Convert.

If 293.1.x.213.9 is correct, you can work out how far it is away from the bend on the road at Berry au Bac by a simple triangle 293.1-221.7 =71.4km North and 296.4-213.9=82.5km West.

Howard

[agooner]

Thanks for that. Of course I normally use Trenchmapper, but this bearing threw me. Maths was not my favourite subject, but sufficient has lodged in my brain...thanks again

 

Tony

[weshallremember]

INTERESTING  MAP 8TH DLI

WERE IN THE FRONT LINE ON THE LEFT OF THE 6TH DLI

TREVOR

[weshallremember]

it says walter brigg was buried by the germans at the commune la ville aux bois

which is on the right of the map below the front line  

trevor

[agooner]

La Ville aux Bois was where he was finally interred on 1920. The Germans buried him near Berry du Bac. I just have to convert the map reference to the British system to get a Google Earth view of the spot, something that Howard has helped me with

Thanks o both of you.

Tony

[agooner]

Sorry Howard, all a bit over my head, the concentration card clearly says Berry du Bac and 293 1 x 213 9 but of course it was not unknown for some clerks in those days to get in a muddle.

 

Tony

[Howard]

Tony

I have often seen the coordinates written back to front. 293.1, 213.9 is about 7,000 yards North of Saint Dizier near the red marker in the second image. Berry au Bac is near the yellow marker.

Howard

 

[weshallremember]

thanks howard

but not was i was hoping for

bigg was in the front line with the 8th durhams

and another soldier on the burial sheet buchan was in the front line with the 4th northumberland fus

  seems weird there bodies were so far away from the front line

on the burial sheet in the top left corner it says commune  ville aux bois

[weshallremember]

note the position of 8th dli

and 4th north fus 

on 27th may

trevor

[weshallremember]

howard a question

also on the burial sheet

it says la ville aux bois british cemetery reims nw 1.50000  299.5 x 219.3

does that match for the cemetery location ???????????

trevor

[weshallremember]

howard

could this be the answer

french map

https://archives.marne.fr/ark:/86869/72zn95cgfwdv/597af8cc-7b5e-49ad-a2f5-e52fd33f871b

trevor

[agooner]

Thanks again Howard A cross we have to bear, old records not always being clear.  "weshall remember"  - The concentration card does have Ville aux Bois, but that is the re-burial cemetery

This particular action was outside the British normal sphere and was probably doomed from the start First time I had come across this sort of of co-ordinates

I just have this desire wherever possible to add to my notes a satellite view of where men were found or first buried

Having just read through a post by Richard Laughton, it seems this particular area suffers from many errors in map co-ordinates, for the French maps which does not help

[weshallremember]

this french map matches the locations 

 

trevor 

[agooner]

Well done Trevor. That map certainly puts the Ville au Bois cemetery co-ordinates in the right place, hence placing the spot where the Germans buried Walter Bigg to the west of Roucy, about Les Bois de Baillart  
Far be it for me to decry our Continental neighbours, but they always had mysterious ways about them I thought our military map co-ordinates were complicated  enough when I started but....

 

Thanks for everyones help in this.. maybe we can close now

[Howard]

10 hours ago, weshallremember said:

this french map matches the locations 

 

trevor 

 

Only if you write Northings then Eastings, i.e. 293.1, 213.9. This does not conform to the Lambert projection scheme used which is always Eastings, Northings, (and stil is) that is why I suggested the coordinates were written back to front. The key is to correlate named locations as has been done, the mistake is then obvious.

The mistake is also very common, even the French got their own coordinates wrong.

That map is georeferenced on TrenchMapper.

Howard

Edited 3 April , 2023 by Howard
Note on map

[agooner]

Thanks to Trevor finding that map, and checking the co-ordinate=s of a known spot, all is now clear,  plus finding an account of action around Roucy that very day

All is well and I have learned another "skill"

Tony