Aisne- Chemin des Dames Battle May- June 1918

[Guest]

On 04/07/2018 at 15:24, Mark Weekes said:

Hello David,

 

Sadly not. My grandfather did a lot of work researching his own father’s movements leading up to 27th May 1918, and may have had some photos of him. Unfortunately his work was lost after he died in 1986. My source for research on him is the World War One soldiers papers from the National Archive via Ancestry and some familial knowledge. 

 

An additional difficulty - so far as Herbert George Weekes (my great grandfather) is concerned -  is that he enlisted in 1914 in the Manchester Regiment, but was transferred to the Yorkshire Regiment on arrival at Etaples in April 1918, it’s highly unlikely any photos from other sources of the 1/5 Yorks from the time would show him. I have not tried the Manchester Regiment to see if they have any photos, but he was a clerk and so a reserved occupation and so spent the period from 1914-1918 at home, only being called into active duty in April 1918. 

Hi Mark, I wonder if your great grand father and mine (and namesake) knew each other. On arrival in Etaples on April 2nd 1918 he was posted to The Yorkshire Regiment and joined the 5th on the 20th April. He was posted as missing on the 27th May. 
He passed away in 1985, but I'm fortunate to have memories from a very young age and remember him.
He played down his experiences, making out he was drunk in a cellar at the time, which caused amusement in the family; but after some research through findmypast which pinpointed him to Craonne and thanks to the increase in resources available and in particular David Blanchards book I have been able to gain a greater understanding of what he most likely actually saw. It was certainly more serious than the family legend, probably indicated by the scar he had from a wound inflicted in a scuffle with a German soldier who hit him with the butt of his rifle. The thought of hand to hand conflict between young men (he was 18) pretty much fighting for your life! He would also comment how once he was a POW he saw Kaiser Bill. 'Funny' story, my colleagues great grandfather was the guy who punched him in Illfracombe that possibly led to a dislike of the English.
I have read through this post in the past but have been brought back to it while helping my 10 year old daughter compile some bits on the end of the war for a school project.
We had hoped to go to Craonne this year on 27th May to mark the event and educate my children a little bit, but unfortunately finances meant we have been unable to. Hopefully some time in the future, but unfortunately not on the centenary.
For those that have been over, how was the experience?
Oh and a big thank you to David Blanchard for his fantastic book that has helped to fill in the gaps and give life to the story. 
I have attached a photo of my great grandfather whilst undergoing training.

[Bathonian]

On 03/01/2006 at 09:53, David_Blanchard said:

Hello,

I have been in contact with a few forum members in recent days with an interest in the Aisne / Chemin des Dames battle 27th May -6th June 1918.

It might be a good idea for members to register an interest on this particular thread.

It might also be useful to clarify the units involved

Below is an order of battle for British Forces in this battle (Apart from the 19th Division)

British IX Corps Sir Alexander Hamilton Gordon

8th Division: Major-General W C G Heneker

23rd Brigade: Brigadier-General W St G Grogan VC

2nd Devonshire

2nd West Yorkshire

2nd Middlesex

24th Brigade: Brigadier-General- General R Haig (wounded)

1st Worcestershire

1st Sherwood Foresters

2nd Northamptonshire

25th Brigade: Brigadier-General R H Husey (Killed In Action)

2nd East Lancashire

2nd Royal Berkshire

2nd Rifle Brigade

R F A Brigades:

XXXIII

XLV

Field Coys. R E:

2

15

490

Pioneers:

22nd Durham

21st Division: Major-General D G M Campbell

62nd Brigade: Brigadier-General G H Gater

12/13th Northumberland Fusiliers

1st Lincolnshire

2nd Lincolnshire

64th Brigade: Brigadier-General H R Headlam

9th KOYLI

15th Durham

110th Brigade: Brigadier-General H R Cumming

6th Leicestershire

7th Leicestershire

8th Leicestershire

R F A Brigades:

XCIV

XCV

Field Coys. R E:

97

98

126

Pioneers:

14th Northumberland Fusiliers

25th Division: Major-General Sir E G T Bainbridge

7th Brigade: Brigadier-General C J Griffin

10th Cheshire

4th South Staffordshire

1st Wiltshire

74th Brigade: Brigadier-General H M Craigie Halkett

11th Lancashire Fusiliers

3rd Worcestershire

9th Loyal North Lancashire

75th Brigade: Brigadier-General A A Kennedy

11th Cheshire

8th Border Regiment

2nd South Lancashire

R F A Brigades:

110

112

Field Coys. R E:

105

106

130

Pioneers:

6th South Wales Borderers

50th Division: Major-General H C Jackson

149th Brigade: Brigadier-General E P A Riddell (wounded)

4th Northumberland Fusilers

5th Northumberland Fusilers

6th Northumberland Fusilers

150th Brigade: Brigadier-General H C Rees (Prisoner of War)

4th East Yorkshire

4th Yorkshire

5th Yorkshire

151st Brigade: Brigadier-General C T Martin (Killed in Action)

5th Durham

6th Durham

8th Durham

R F A Brigades:

250th

251st

Field Coys. R E

7

446

447

Pioneers:

7th Durham

 

[Bathonian]

Hello David, Thank you for the very interesting and enlightening talk that you gave to the WFA in Lancaster in September 2018. As discussed my Grandfather, Sapper P. Ward 183752, was  part of the RE 7th Field coy with 50th Division and was captured during this battle. I understand that he was a POW in Rammacourt and would like to hear from any others whose relatives were also there. Unfortunately my Grandfather died in hospital in Trelon on 2nd October 1918 but his cause of death is not known. Any help would be appreciated please. Thank you.

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread recently- I have been very bust recently and will reply in further detail later

 

David 

[Guest]

Hi I am new to this forum which I came across searching for information on my grandfather.  It is a fascinating thread and I wonder if anyone can help - not used a forum before.  My Grandfather was Clement Harry Andrews, he was a Gunner in the Royal Field Artillery.  His number was 60261.  He enlisted in 1909 in London.  He was taken prisoner at Pontavert on 27 May 1918 during the Third Battle of Aisne. He survived but not sure of details of POW camps or repatriation but he was invalided out of the army in April 1921.  In his papers I have a gazette entry (I think that is what it is) which details the actions of Lieut.Large, Captain Massey and others which research leads me to believe at the 5th Battery.  The entry lists the personnel present at the battery during this action.  My grandfather is listed as 60621 Gr. Andrews, C (a transposition error I think given his number of 60261 which is listed on the International Red Cross POW record).   In a much earlier thread in June 2009 some members: rflory and phil andrade and others were discussing this battery and 45th Brigade.  Please does anyone have any more information.  Many thanks.   Toni

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Toni,

 

there is a chapter in my Aisne 1918 book on the 45th Brigade at the Bois des Buttes on the 27 May 1918 it sounds as he may have been a member of the 5 Gibraltar Battery as you mention both Massey and Large- I have a list of men with this Battery on the 27 May I will have a look to see if I can find your grandfather. Would it be possible to post the Gazette entry on this thread

 

David 

Edited 10 November , 2018 by David_Blanchard

[Mark Weekes]

On 03/11/2018 at 03:29, George Heward said:

Hi Mark, I wonder if your great grand father and mine (and namesake) knew each other. On arrival in Etaples on April 2nd 1918 he was posted to The Yorkshire Regiment and joined the 5th on the 20th April. He was posted as missing on the 27th May. 
He passed away in 1985, but I'm fortunate to have memories from a very young age and remember him.
He played down his experiences, making out he was drunk in a cellar at the time, which caused amusement in the family; but after some research through findmypast which pinpointed him to Craonne and thanks to the increase in resources available and in particular David Blanchards book I have been able to gain a greater understanding of what he most likely actually saw. It was certainly more serious than the family legend, probably indicated by the scar he had from a wound inflicted in a scuffle with a German soldier who hit him with the butt of his rifle. The thought of hand to hand conflict between young men (he was 18) pretty much fighting for your life! He would also comment how once he was a POW he saw Kaiser Bill. 'Funny' story, my colleagues great grandfather was the guy who punched him in Illfracombe that possibly led to a dislike of the English.
I have read through this post in the past but have been brought back to it while helping my 10 year old daughter compile some bits on the end of the war for a school project.
We had hoped to go to Craonne this year on 27th May to mark the event and educate my children a little bit, but unfortunately finances meant we have been unable to. Hopefully some time in the future, but unfortunately not on the centenary.
For those that have been over, how was the experience?
Oh and a big thank you to David Blanchard for his fantastic book that has helped to fill in the gaps and give life to the story. 
I have attached a photo of my great grandfather whilst undergoing training.

 

 

Hello George,

 

Apologies, I have not checked back to this forum for a while and so only just saw your post. Which Regiment was  your great grandfather seconded from to the Yorkshire Regiment? It seems like a realistic possibility that our great grandfathers would have known each other, at least around the time of the 27th May. 

 

I was was able to go to Craonne in the summer - and to do the walk suggested by David. It was a very moving experience, not least because I think that I may well have been the first member of my family to visit the location. I am pretty sure that neither Herbert’s wife nor his children (my grandfather and my great aunts) did so. It certainly brings home the reality of the war especially seeing the devastation wrought on the old village of Craonne. Seeing my great grandfather’s memorial at Soissons was also a very moving experience, and by a stroke of luck I was able to get into the fenced off area to take a close up photograph of the section of the memorial in which his name appears. 

[Guest]

On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 09:04, Mark Weekes said:

 

 

Hello George,

 

Apologies, I have not checked back to this forum for a while and so only just saw your post. Which Regiment was  your great grandfather seconded from to the Yorkshire Regiment? It seems like a realistic possibility that our great grandfathers would have known each other, at least around the time of the 27th May. 

 

I was was able to go to Craonne in the summer - and to do the walk suggested by David. It was a very moving experience, not least because I think that I may well have been the first member of my family to visit the location. I am pretty sure that neither Herbert’s wife nor his children (my grandfather and my great aunts) did so. It certainly brings home the reality of the war especially seeing the devastation wrought on the old village of Craonne. Seeing my great grandfather’s memorial at Soissons was also a very moving experience, and by a stroke of luck I was able to get into the fenced off area to take a close up photograph of the section of the memorial in which his name appears. 

Hello George and Mark,

                                     My Grandfather Private Charles William Lloyd also went to France in April 1918 with the Manchester Regt transferring to the 1/4 East Yorks on 5th April. He was captured on 27th May 1918. I have a postcard photo of him in the training camp at Prees Heath, Shropshire 1917 and also field service postcards, posted as missing documents and letters home written as a POW. Possibly he may also have known your relatives.

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Richy,

 

could you post post a photograph of your grandfather on here?

 

regards

 

David 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Hi Richy,

 

could you post post a photograph of your grandfather on here?

 

regards

 

David 

Hello David, this is my Grandfather whilst at Prees Heath near Whitchurch.

        

[David_Blanchard]

Excellent photograph many thanks for sharing!

[Lis]

On 07/04/2018 at 14:51, David_Blanchard said:

This thread on the Aisne- Chemin des Dames  is becoming much more interesting after a while with few posts.

 

I enclose a map copy from TNA from about 20 years ago- mostly of the 50 Divisional sector but also part of the 8 Division.

 

A very nice couple from Kent supplied me with somewhere in the region of a thousand copies of officers files of men involved in the battle. Mainly from 50 Division but I have others. Those files with capture statements are particularly interesting. I also enclose an example, of the original and one that has been typed up.

 

David 

Hi I'm new on here and researching Private Leslie Abbott of the 1/4th East Yorkshire Regiment. He was missing presumed killed on 27th May1918, and from what I know from relatives, he had only been in France for 6 weeks (he was 18, I believe), so was probably one of the new recruits who needed training on this 'quiet' section of the front. How can I find out where he would have been stationed on that fateful day? I've no idea whether he was in A B or C company and therefore which trench he would have been in. I've tried to look on the map photos on this thread but am struggling to find the 3 trenches mentioned. 

Also, how could I manage to get hold of a map like the one above, showing the deployment of the regiments? Thanks.

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Lis,

 

I don’t wish to blow my own trumpet but my book on the Aisne 1918- has a number of maps that you will find useful. Do you have a photograph of your relative that you could post on this thread?

David 

[Joe Toy]

Hi Lis

How interesting. I have also been working on the IX Corps and their movement down to the 'Quiet Sector' of the Chemin-des-Dames, Aisne in April 1918 for rest, re-manning, re-equipping and the embedding of new recruits following the Corps experiences and losses in the March Spring Offensive and the Lys. 

 

My grandfather was with the 286th Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery (77th Bde)  and thanks to the History of the 77th Brigade RGA (Lt Col. Horace de Walters) I was able to track his movements from attestation at Whittington Barracks, Lichfield right throughout his army service record.

 

I have to say, David Blanchard's Aisne 1918 book (Battleground Series) is an invaluable tool and I would recommend you acquiring it from Amazon or whoever. Thanks to David and Col. de Walters I have been able to produce a video on Bombardier Joseph Arthur Toy giving a narrated account of his life and Great War exploits.  Joe Toy actually features on Page 158 of David's Aisne 1918.

 

By coincidence, my grandfather's battery were supporting the 50th Division (inc 4th East Yorks) as shown on this map.  Looking at the casualty figures, I found it remarkable that Joseph survived Third Aisne and all the other casualty high battles of 1917/18 without a scratch when so many of his comrades were killed, badly wounded or PoW's. His only hospitalisation was with a bout of GOUT !!!

 

Hope this is helpful to you.

 

Regards,  Malcolm Sperring-Toy

 

 

[Lis]

Just now, Lis said:

Private Leslie Gabbott 

[Joe Toy]

The 4th East York’s were part of 150th Brigade which in turn were part of 50 Division who were in IX Corps.

Interestingly, the 150th Brigade commander was Brigadier-General H C Rees  who became a Prisoner of War on 27 May 1918 and was paraded in front of Kaiser Wilhelm who found it amusing that Rees  was a Welshman - why he should I do not know other than Kaiser Bill’s links to Wales through his Grandmother, Queen Victoria and nephew, the Prince of Wales later to become King Edward 8th.

 

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Joe and Lis

 

thanks for the information- Joe, sorry I didn’t get back to you have been distracted in writing a talk for WFA on an attack on Delville Wood in July 1916, by 53rd Brigade.

 

David 

[Joe Toy]

Sounds interesting David

 

 I attend almost all of the WFA online webinars and will look forward to your presentation whenever that may be.

 

Malcolm

[David_Blanchard]

It’s on 21st December.

 

David

[Joe Toy]

David

 

i have some photographs, maps and information on Delville Wood that were included in a guide book I compiled for tour group participants on Somme visits if they might be of use to you.

 

Malcolm 

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks Joe,

 

please send them on.

 

David 

[Lis]

I’ve got your book although I only got it recently and haven’t had a chance to read it properly yet. 
I guess I’m confused as I can see PC Electra and PC Marais and I’ve also found Trench Falaise as mentioned in the war diary but I can’t work out from the trench maps which is the actual front line trenches and what they were called. 
I marked Marais and Electra as purple dots and circled Trench Falaise in green on this trench map. On the second photo I’ve circled what looks like the front line trenches in purple. Would this have been correct on 27th May 1918? How much of this line did the 1/4th East Yorks man? Where did the 5th Yorks take over? 
Thanks 

Another photo of Private Leslie Gabbott 1/4th East Yorkshire Regiment 

[David_Blanchard]

I think you have more or less got the frontline trenches right. Also download the brigade war diary, if you haven’t done so already- it should give a little bit more context.

 

David 

[Lis]

On 28/11/2020 at 11:28, David_Blanchard said:

I think you have more or less got the frontline trenches right. Also download the brigade war diary, if you haven’t done so already- it should give a little bit more context.

 

David 

Thanks. I’ve got the War Diary for the 1/4th East Yorkshire - massive tome! Great for dipping into! Haven’t seen the brigade war diary though. 
Lis 

[David_Blanchard]

This is a trench map included in the 150th Brigade War Diary. It is worth downloading the diary from the National Archives.