Aisne- Chemin des Dames Battle May- June 1918

[bierast]

On 3/24/2018 at 23:03, German IR 169 said:

A question for you and other WFA members.  I recently watched the documentary First World War from Above, a 2010 BBC production, which highlights footage of the Western Front taken in 1919.   (I imagine many WFA members are well familiar with it - I found it fascinating.)    At about six minutes into the documentary,  images of the Chemin des Dames are featured.  From this quick glimpse, it looks to me like its the Winterberg, and I welcome further confirmation from any WFA members.    Also, a moment later, a cluster of ruined French tanks are shown.  I am also curious if these are in the vicinity of the Juvincourt trenches.   There is a passage in the book where one of the primary sources, Otto Lais, describes a misadventure where he can't resist the temptation of exploring a group of disabled French tanks (which he refers to a trench graveyard) during a short break in shelling.  I suspect that this likely occurred in the vicinity of this image.

 

The numerous burnt-out Schneider CA1 tanks from the first French tank attack on 16th April 1917 were a popular 'tourist attraction' for Germans subsequently posted to the area. I haven't been able to find any map indicating the exact locations of the wrecks, but the following operational map from Tim Gale's French Tanks of the Great War: Development, Tactics and Operations should give you some idea.

 

[German IR 169]

Thanks for the map and additional info, indeed these tanks must have been a popular tourist attraction for the German troops.  For those who may be interested, below is the passage from my book where Otto Lais, with IR 169's 2nd Machine Gun Company, at the risk of some peril, explores one of the destroyed French tanks near the vicinity of their Juvincourt Trenches.  

 

Regards, John Rieth

 

(From Pages 215-216, Imperial Germany's Iron Regiment of the First World War; History of Infantry Regiment 169)

 

     One notable feature of IR 169’s new trench line was that it nearly intersected the center-point of the ill-fated April 16 French tank assault against Juvincourt.  Lais, along with 2nd MG Commander Morgenhaler and his platoon leader, Leutnant Wenzler, discovered this ‘tank graveyard’ during their second day in the Juvincourt position. The trio had to venture across open ground in order to coordinate defensive plans with the neighboring IR 88. The journey was a frantic dash, with the MG leaders coming under fire as soon as they left the trenches.  Midway, the men made a headfirst leap into a shell crater to await a break in the fire. When the barrage slowed, they realized they were in the midst of 18 destroyed French tanks.  Also strewn about the battlefield were shattered German artillery pieces of every caliber.  French artillery had been keeping up a steady fire on the abandoned tanks and guns, making it impossible for the Germans to retrieve material of any possible value.

     Lais and his superiors completed their mission and returned back to their lines, but remained curious about the field of ruined tanks. Soldiers are inquisitive creatures, and the lure of exploring the ruined French tanks at a later time proved impossible to resist. The French had created a pattern of halting artillery fires between the hours of 2:00 to 4:00 am. One rainy night, when visibility was particularly poor, Lais and a group of comrades set out to examine the tank graveyard at 3:00 am.  Lais described his exploration of the shattered hulk of a French Schneider tank.

 

     "At 3:00 am we dared to set out in a stormy night, with rain-scourged faces to examine the tank ruins. Eerily, the shredded outlines of a tanks appeared in the darkness, with storm winds mournfully blowing through their gaping holes. We crawled into the belly of one of these giants whose doors had been torn off. Once inside, the cover allowed us to shine a flashlight. A ghostly image was offered to us. There, in the crew compartment interior, were the twisted remains of the crew, with limbs resembling charred branches of a burned tree. We soon had enough of this tour. We hardly departed this tank graveyard when another artillery bombardment begins.”

 

=========

Below is a depiction of one of the French tanks that was likely in the vicinity of Lais' explorations.

 

Edited 29 March , 2018 by German IR 169
format

[David_Blanchard]

Tank graveyard at Juvincourt- these wrecked hunks destroyed during the Nivelle Offensive were still lying on the battlefield well after the armistice in 1919

Edited 29 March , 2018 by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

Mr Bierast,

 

have you come come across the Wagner Tunnel the HQ of the 2 Devons in the Bois des Buttes on 27 May? I managed to find this tunnel 2 years ago on a visit to the area. Is it mentioned by the Saxons? 

 

Mentioned in this his testimony of Captain James Milner of the 2 Devons on the 27 May 1918

Edited 2 April , 2018 by David_Blanchard

[bierast]

4 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

have you come come across the Wagner Tunnel the HQ of the 2 Devons in the Bois des Buttes on 27 May? I managed to find this tunnel 2 years ago on a visit to the area. Is it mentioned by the Saxons? 

 

This feature, the Wagnerturm (Wagner Tower), is not mentioned in the Saxon sources - the most detailed and relevant of which is the regimental history of Schutzen-Regiment 108. In the absence of (sadly long-lost) war diaries or contemporary Pionier plans of the tunnel system I can't state for sure whether this was part of their original scheme or a later addition.

 

Following the capture of the ‘Berg von La Ville aux Bois’ on 10^th March 1916, Schützen-Regiment 108 immediately set to work on improving their new position in the expectation of French attempts to recapture it. Additional support was provided by the division in the form of all available Pioniere plus reserve companies of Leibgrenadier-Regiment 100 as an additional labour force. The most urgent tasks were identified as the excavation of deep dugouts (to replace the crude French dugouts which had been used in the first instance), establishment of a strong wire obstacle line, digging of sufficient communication trenches and developing a deep-echeloned trench system in the sector.

The regimental history states:

 

“In each company sector Stollen [long cylindrical dugouts] with three to four entrances were constructed in the second line. The sandy soil demanded the use of mining frames [a wooden framework to prevent the walls from collapsing], but also permitted rapid work. The entrances were driven into the ground in a series of steps until a roof 6m in depth was achieved, and then joined together by long galleries, from [the sides of] which bunks went out as accommodation space for officers and men.

For the reserve companies an entire system of tunnels was started under the direction of Oberleutnant der Reserve Schrauff (Pionier-Bataillon 12). Tunnel III or Regimentstunnel from the northeastern slope of the Berg opposite the Wasserburg, Tunnel II in the Büchenhugel, the so-called Pionierkaserne [‘Pioneer Barracks’] in Wettingraben at the saddle between the Büchenhugel and Konigshöhe and in the Konigshöhe. The connections between the tunnels were planned out from the outset, and kitchens, medical facilities, storage for ammunition and provisions were built into the tunnels. To bring up the materials necessary for the construction, the field railway was extended right away up to the front line.”

 

This work paid off when the French attacked in force on 25^th April. They were successfully repelled from the SR 108 sector, but achieved some success in the neighbouring sector of Grenadier-Regiment 101 immediately to the south, where the high water table had prevented the construction of dugouts in the second line; many of the defenders were therefore surprised in their dugouts in the first line. The result was a modest French gain which forced SR 108 to extend their left flank backward and sidetracked them temporarily from their work in the Bois des Buttes.

 

Nevertheless by the time SR 108 was relieved by Prussian IR 68 on 1^st September and departed for the Somme, they (and the units assigned to assist them) had established a defensive system they could and did take significant pride in.

 

“The regiment were able to hand over the gloriously captured and gloriously held Berg to the new unit as a mighty fortress. The dugout clusters of the company sectors were joined to long galleries and in part connected to the tunnel, which permitted it to accommodate substantial reserves. A massive [wire] obstacle line covered the Berg. The trenches offered excellent elevated and flanking lines of fire.”

 

 

[bierast]

The above source suggests that Oberleutnant der Reserve Georg Schrauff of Pionier-Bataillon 12 can perhaps be considered the architect of the tunnel system. Since he was later awarded the Ritterkreuz of the Militär St. Heinrichs Orden (the highest Saxon and oldest German gallantry award) I have a bit of information about him to impart. Georg Schrauff was born on 22nd October 1882 in Nuremberg (and was thus a Bavarian, although serving in the Saxon Army). By trade he was a civil engineer, a common trade for reserve officers of Pioniere. He was still commanding a field company of PB 12 with 23. Inf. Div. in 1918. From 29th March to 3rd April 1918 this company worked unceasingly under his personal direction for five days and nights to get German troops across the Avre at La Neuville-Braches - repairing damaged bridges, creating numerous new crossings from scratch and directing the continual traffic under relentless enemy artillery fire. For this invaluable effort he was awarded the MStHO(R) on 29th April 1918. He was killed in action on 18th October that year at Landisay east of St. Quentin.

 

Edited 2 April , 2018 by bierast

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks very much an excellent reply. I realised the tunnel system under the Bois des Buttes was extensive with a light railway being used but you have certainly helped to fill in many of the details. Shame that the plan for this underground network has been lost.

 

thanks again,

 

David 

[David_Blanchard]

I enclose a sketch map provided by the mother of Captain John Hamon Massey who was killed on the 27 May 1918 as part of the 45 Brigade RFA. This map was sent to the French authorities to try to help find her son’s body. It is not topographically accurate but includes the position Wagram which I now assume was in fact the Wagner tower.

[bierast]

1 hour ago, David_Blanchard said:

Thanks very much an excellent reply. I realised the tunnel system under the Bois des Buttes was extensive with a light railway being used but you have certainly helped to fill in many of the details. Shame that the plan for this underground network has been lost.

 

Thankyou! I should mention that although there is no reference to concreting in the above excerpts from the regimental history, this had certainly been employed elsewhere in the divisional sector as early as 1915 (for bunkers, including roofed artillery emplacements). Therefore something like the Wagnerturm (which is dated 1916 on its nameplate) was certainly not outside their modus operandi. For comparison take a look at this concrete observation post in the second line of the Leibgrenadier-Regiment 100 sector near Berry-au-Bac, which took a severe hammering most likely in the bombardments of late September / early October 1915 (intended to dissuade XII.AK from sending reserves to the Champagne battlefront).

 

 

 

Edited 2 April , 2018 by bierast

[PJS]

Thank you very much for the photograph of Miette Wood (aka the Miettewald or Miettebachwald). A month ago I did not know that the place existed; now I have a sketch map and a Photo. Can't thank you all enough.

 

David, I'm sure you already know this, but the narrative from the 45th Brigade RFA, 1st Battery also mentions Wagram Hill and Wagram.

 

 

Link is below if you are on Ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1694_0-00000?pid=614859&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DANP1030%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dukwardiarieswwi%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gskw%3D45%20Brigade%20Royal%20Field%20Artillery%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D4%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Duin%26pcat%3DMIL_HISTORIES%26fh%3D2%26h%3D614859%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ANP1030&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43112_1694_0-00690

 

My hacked-up map below is where I think the War Diaries imply that the 45th Brigade RFA Batteries and HQ were actually located on the 26/27th.

 

 

Could the woods in the sketch map you uploaded actually be Bois des Buttes and Bois Marteau/Clausarde?

 

[David_Blanchard]

The sketch map is definitely the Bois des Buttes and ‘Wagram’ is almost certainly Wagner Turm or Tower. I have looked on countless maps for Wagram over the years. Yet to find it. I enclose a photograph of Wagner Turm from 2015 when I was last there. 

 

Will you be there on 27 May?

 

David 

[PJS]

I must admit that I have been keeping my eyes open for Wagram since you posed the question a couple of weeks ago, which is why I recognized it in the narrative. No sign of it on any map that I have seen though. The RFA narrative also mentions VINCENT HILL. Have you come across that on any map?

 

I would love to be there on the 27th but I live in the US these days so I would need to stop just thinking about it and actually start doing something about it soon ...

[David_Blanchard]

There is an Observation Position Wagram post on the Great War Forum from 2015- started my me!

[David_Blanchard]

A photograph of German troops- Saxons? In La Ville aux Bois. On the wall of the

 mairie of the village in 2015

[bierast]

On 4/5/2018 at 18:17, David_Blanchard said:

A photograph of German troops- Saxons? In La Ville aux Bois. On the wall of the mairie of the village in 2015

 

Definitely Saxons - I can just make out the distinctive Saxon cuffs in the lower photo. I would be greatly surprised if they weren't from Schützen-Regiment 108 - both because they held the village and because they appear to have very dark cap bands. Like the Saxon (and Prussian) Jägers the regiment was uniformed in Grüngrau instead of Feldgrau - this looks lighter than Feldgrau in monochrome photos. Unlike the Jägers they wore a black (rather than green) cap band and green piping:

 

 

They also wore the Saxon Tschako with horsehair plume, and a red hunting horn above the regimental number on the shoulderstraps (but not officers' shoulderboards).

 

 

 

Edit: I forgot about the unique regimental belt buckle!

 

 

Edited 7 April , 2018 by bierast
Forgot the belt buckle!

[David_Blanchard]

Excellent thanks for the information.

 

David 

[David_Blanchard]

In answer to the earlier question about the tank graveyard near Juvincourt this link from the French Forum 14 18 helps explain

 

https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=52496

[German IR 169]

Thanks much for sending this link to the French forum.   The images of the destroyed tanks near the Juvincourt trenches indeed match the quick glimpse from the BBC First World War from Above documentary as well as Otto Lais' account of his foray to explore the ruins a week or so after the 16 April 1917 battle.   That website is a helpful resource and thanks again for bringing it to our attention.

 

Regards,  John Rieth 

[bierast]

On 4/3/2018 at 13:24, PJS said:

Thank you very much for the photograph of Miette Wood (aka the Miettewald or Miettebachwald). A month ago I did not know that the place existed; now I have a sketch map and a Photo. Can't thank you all enough.

 

No problem - I'm getting a lot out of this thread too. This sector is where my WW1 interest started, as it's where all of my GGF's photos from the front were taken.

 

I believe this photo (taken by another member of SR 108 in 1915) was also taken in the Miettewald, as there is no other location in the sector where I would expect to see a stream running through woodland like this. The water level of the Miettebach clearly varied substantially depending on the time of year.

 

 

10 hours ago, German IR 169 said:

Thanks much for sending this link to the French forum.   The images of the destroyed tanks near the Juvincourt trenches indeed match the quick glimpse from the BBC First World War from Above documentary as well as Otto Lais' account of his foray to explore the ruins a week or so after the 16 April 1917 battle.   That website is a helpful resource and thanks again for bringing it to our attention.

 

Likewise thanks, this is a very useful resource.

Edited 7 April , 2018 by bierast
Formatting

[bierast]

Further to my post on the development of the La Ville aux Bois sector during its occupation by SR 108, the following new acquisition may be of interest. This is part of a large group of photos taken by one Max Wunsche of the regiment which appeared on german eBay over Easter, and sadly only a few of which I was able to secure. It depicts part of the Feldbahn / Förderbahn (field railway) marked on the above map, which was vital to the construction of the elaborate tunnel and trench complex after the seizure of the Viller Berg on 10th March 1916. Sadly it is undated, but the writer makes it clear (in one of the parts of the text which I can read) that the railway goes up to within 100m of the French lines. All seven men (who do not include Wunsche himself) are named on the back.

 

 

 

[David_Blanchard]

This thread on the Aisne- Chemin des Dames  is becoming much more interesting after a while with few posts.

 

I enclose a map copy from TNA from about 20 years ago- mostly of the 50 Divisional sector but also part of the 8 Division.

 

A very nice couple from Kent supplied me with somewhere in the region of a thousand copies of officers files of men involved in the battle. Mainly from 50 Division but I have others. Those files with capture statements are particularly interesting. I also enclose an example, of the original and one that has been typed up.

 

David 

Edited 7 April , 2018 by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks Bierast for the excellent photographs from the Viller Berg. Btw what is your name?

 

David 

[bierast]

3 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

Thanks Bierast for the excellent photographs from the Viller Berg. Btw what is your name?

 

NP,  my pleasure. I am Andrew Lucas, co-author of Fighting the Kaiser's War: The Saxons in Flanders 1914-1918 (Pen &  Sword 2015). 'Bierast' was my German grandmother's maiden name - her father Arno Bierast served with 4. Königlich Sächsisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 48 (FAR 48) for the duration.

Edited 7 April , 2018 by bierast
Formatting

[David_Blanchard]

Andrew,

 

Have you come across this thread on the Forum 14 18 ?

 

https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=61471&hilit=Bois+des+Buttes+Saxon

 

Which is concerned with Saxon troops on the Aisne?

 

David 

[PJS]

David, that is an excellent set of information about the 50th Div. So far, I have only posted about my Grandfather (Pvt Arthur Slater 1st Sherwoods) but my great uncle 2/Lt Alfred Edward Downing 9th Loyal North Lancashires was killed in action that day. Actually he was officially listed as wounded and missing on that day. His body was never identified and I have only the following two separate pieces of information about what actually happened to him that day:

 

 

The CCS referenced above was (I believe) at Beaurieux and Colonel "Wilkins" was actually Col A. Milne-Thomson RAMC. His report concluded that Pvt Cooper confused my Gt Uncle with Capt RJP Hewetson 9th LNL. In fact, Capt Hewetson (who subsequently died 6 weeks later of starvation in a cellar) was left in the field overnight and did not arrive at the CCS until the next day. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a Pvt would confuse both the person and the day.

 

The letter below was sent to my Gt Uncle's family from one of his men:

 

 

Obviously, if you have any pointers for me I would appreciate it. I already have the 9th Loyal North Lancashires War Diary and the book, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 1914-1919 by H. C. Wylly. But I wondered if any of the 1,000 files you referenced contain anything about the 9th LNL on that day?