Aisne- Chemin des Dames Battle May- June 1918

[pw643]

David

I keep coming back to this thread as my knowledge for this particular area is very little and have not yet managed to visit. It seems that you will have amassed a great deal of information. Are you intending a publication? or is that asking too much.

Fantastic thread

Regards

Paul

[David_Blanchard]

Hello,

I would like to say that I am intending to publish- having finished an MPhil on the Aisne in 2005- but with greater commitments at school and helping to run my son's various sports, it is a way off. I have even thought of a tentative title;

'The First Blitzkrieg: Aisne 1918'

However, interesting stuff on the Aisne keeps turning up. After many years I managed to get a photograph of Colonel J A R Thomson of the Yorkshire Regiment from the Green Howards museum in Richmond this week.

I also discovered that the Yorkshire and England cricketer Herbert Sutcliffe was in either the 4th or 5th Bn Yorkshire Regiment between 1916 and 1918- so now trying to discover if he was in the Aisne battle.

Also a new link to a webpage devoted to Pte John George Morley of the 4th Bn Yorkshire Regiment, taken prisoner on the Aisne, 27th May 1918;

http://www.ww1-yorkshires.org.uk/pdf-files/csm-morley.pdf

Regards

David

[dobbin]

Just adding a cross reference to a thread about Lieut. Col J A R Thompson officer commanding the 5th Yorkshire Regiment, killed on the 27th May 1918 at Craonne on the Aisne.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=94140&hl=

David I have been reading this very useful thread. My uncle Fredrick H Denham 2nd Field Co Royal Engineers was captured on the 27th May 1918. I have a letter from his Co Commander Capt L A West stating he was missing. He was repatriated I dont know when. I note they were with the 8th Div. Would you have any information on this or could you suggest any reading or places that I might contact for more information please? Thanks Colin

[David_Blanchard]

Jeff C,

I suggest you have a look at Guy Smith's webite on the 50th Northumbrian Division:

http://www.fairmile.fsbusiness.co.uk/50th.htm

C Clive,

I would suggest you try to contact the Red Cross for details (there are other threads on the forum that would be more helpful in this respect)

One of the more recent is this one:

 

Regards

David

[ItemCo16527]

Hi David,

Many thanks for the link. That site is fantastic!

[dobbin]

Jeff C,

I suggest you have a look at Guy Smith's webite on the 50th Northumbrian Division:

http://www.fairmile.fsbusiness.co.uk/50th.htm

C Clive,

I would siggest you try to contact the Red Cross for details (there are other threads on the forum that would be more helpful in this respect)

One of the more recent is this one:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=117522&hl=

Regards

David

Thanks Davis I will follow up on that Colin

[akduerden]

Re 'Trotter's thoughts that the visible shoulder patch on one of the British soldiers in the German photo was possibly from 24 Brigade of 8th Division. If the photo is from the Aisne in May 1918 then he is probably from 1st Worcesters as 2nd East Lancashires had been transferred in the reorganisation of February 1918 to 25 Brigade and its battle patch was now a square shape.

Thanks to David Blanchard for the photos.

I must admit an interest as I am completing my doctoral thesis on 8th Division. The Aisne was truly too awful for it to be part of any 'learning curve'!

David or anyone else,

I am researching my grand father's time in the 36th Battery, 33rd Brigade during the period 12/12/1917 - 29/9/1918. I noted that Alun is doing a thesis on the 8th Division and have PM'd him but not had a response yet. During the Aisne-Chemin des Dames battle period he was attached to the 8th Division Signals School and I am trying to find out how involved they were in the battle.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

[akduerden]

Whilst researching 33rd brigade RFA, 8th Division I have found this note on casualties relating to 33rd Brigade 27/5/1918...

Andrew

[akduerden]

Further to research mentioned in previous note the impact on the RE Signals Service during the retreats in March and May and the impact it had on the efficiency of the signals service is covered quite well in Chapter 14 of the e-book "Work of the RE in the European War, 1914-1919 - The Signal Service (France)" which is available at: http://www.archive.org/details/signalserviceine00prie

Pages 278-282 deal specifically with the Aisne-Chemin Des Dames battle.

Andrew

[David_Blanchard]

Andrew,

Thanks for the excellent link to the ebook:

"Work of the RE in the European War, 1914-1919 - The Signal Service (France)"

Regards

David

[paulb]

Just bringing this one back to the top.....91 years ago today.

[David_Blanchard]

Remembered today all who died in this battle.

[paulb]

i visited ventelay back in april again this year armed with a copy of stackes book on the worcestershire regiment. I managed to locate the posistion of the trench where the 3rd btln worcestershire regiment were fighting on the 28/05/18. This is where my great uncle Sgt Daniel Oakley was lost. I will try to post the photos on here tonight of the posistion held over looking the village on the night of the 28 may.

[paulb]

http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/b...rs_2009/057.jpg

This is the approx posisition of the third worcesters on the 28 may 1918 over looking ventelay.

This is a part of stackes book.

Dawn came and with the dawn the german guns opened fire. Shells burst over the newley dug trenches and shrapnel bullets spattered down over the open hillside. The troops stood the ordeal grimley, holding their ground untill about 8am, the enemys infantry advanced in long colums from ventelay. German field batteries galloped forward into action and bombarded the half made trenches at short range. The weak british battalions answered with bursts of musketry, which forced the german colums to deploy into a swarm of grey clad skirmishers who came pressing up the slope.

It must have been truley terrifying

RIP Sgt Daniel Oakley 201277 28/5/18

[Guest Norman Hessler]

I have just returned from a trip to (Le Mans via) Pontavert with 3 pals in two old Jaguars.

The reason for the detour was to visit the last resting place of my namesake, Capt. J.A.Norman Hessler, of the 5th DLI, D Coy, who lost his life on May 27th 1918 in a last ditch effort to defend a trench which I believe (from my amateur research) was called the Boyeau d' Edmond just in front of the Butte d' Edmond near Temple Ferme to the north of the village. The sun was shining, it was a glorious peaceful day. What made it even more poignant was that the poppies were out. I saved one, and hope to sow the seeds in my garden.......hopefully they will flower one day. He had been married for just 39 days when he was killed. His brother Jackie was killed in the March, leaving my father as the last male of his generation.

We drove along the Chemin des Dames, stopped and looked out one of the visitor centres - impossible to believe that such atrocities could have heppened in such a peaceful setting.

David, I read with interest that you have written a thesis on the battle - are copies available?

[David_Blanchard]

Hello Norman,

I am pleased you got in touch. I have been very interested in the Hessler family in the Great War for sometime. Both of your great uncles names are on the war memorial at Seaton Carew. I always wondered why they fought for the Allies and the story behind their enlistment.

From what I can remember they were a family who were inovlved in the timber trade.

I am busy at present but will dig out my research this weekend.

Do you have more information on your family that you could share?

Regards

David

[Guest Norman Hessler]

David

Despite the obvious Germanic origin of the name my grandfather Jacob came to England from Norway, aged about 14, to stay with his uncle Charles Muller in West Hartlepool after his mother remarried. He was involved in shipping and the timber trade - learned from family members in Porsgrunn. I have traced the name back as far as Christiania (Oslo) in 1806. My great grandmother's family (Muller) came from Denmark and there is anecdotal evidence that one of my ancestors was imprisoned in the Tower of London after the Battle of Copenhagen!

My grandfather was very successful prior to WW1, rising from shipping clerk to shipowner: Hessler & Co has a number of cargo ships in the early part of the century.He built a grand house in WH called Oval Grange in Wooler Road. My grandfather's fortunes waxed and waned - when J & N died he had moved out of the big house to Seaton Carew, and also owned a house in the dales called Dibblebridge near Castleton. He obviously cared deeply about his sons and other members of the regiment, as he rented an old shooting lodge (named Westerdale Hall, I think) to allow soldiers to enjoy the peace of the N Yorks moors when on leave.

Jackie and Norman both enlisted in 1915, and Norman married Mary Park in April 1918. I have a silver bowl given to him on the occasion of his wedding (undated, presumably because the precise date would unknown to the regiment) by Lt Col Spence.

Jackie was educated at Haileybury and Norman went to Malvern (as did my father and I). They are remembered in both schools, at Seaton Carew, Poizieres and Soissons.

[Guest dak747]

Remembered today all who died in this battle.

David,

Just got back from our second visit to the beautiful Vendresse Cemetry, visiting (and laying a white rose on) the grave of my wife's great uncle, Serjeant Francis Lyons DCM of the 5th Green Howards, buried beside his CO, Lt Col JAR Thomson DSO. Both Malton men who (I guess) were the remnants of the original Bn that landed in France in 1915. We tripped over a commemorative stone to him in the catholic cemetry in Malton a few years back, it mentioned that he died at Craonne on 27th May 1918, thus started my fascination with the Aisne battles of 1914 and 1918 (the latter always seem so poignant). It is also such a beautiful part of France and you can just imagine the men of IX Corps detraining and their sense of relief when arriving there from Flanders in 1918, only to be so cruelly disabused so soon after.

I too share your sense of disappointment/shame (I am a serving Army officer) that these significant and costly battles are so badly remembered or known about - very disappointed (but not surprised!) that so little is mentioned locally on the Chemin des Dames too. Your research is so important and you really must publish and if I can assist - let me know.

In any case, I am hugely interested, especially in the 5th Yorkshires. Only on our second visit was I able to work out the reference to how Thomson and the remnants of his Bn HQ/HQ Coy met their end after a very gallant fight on the Californie Plateau (a very moving diary entry from Brig Rees, Comd 150 Bde to his last landline conversation with Thomson - p280 of "1918 a Very British Victory" by Peter Hart). It refers to them being caught by a machine gun from Craonne and on my first visit I thought Craonne a bit too far for effective small arms fire; however on my second visit I realised that the original Craonne, now ruined, is a stones throw from the rear of the Plateau. My guess is Francis Lyons was in that small group with Thomson, there are about 5 or 6 young Yorkshires buried together with them in Vendresse. Anything you can add to this thread gratefully recieved. It has become an annual family homage and I certainly sound off about teh Aisne battles whenever I can at work - especially when Green Howards are present - we really must generate some interest and research. Many thanks fro the insights your thread has given me - really got me worked up.

Regards

David

[Guest colinoyoung1@hotmail.com]

Hallo David,

I'm new to the Forum, having stumbled across it while researching the history of my father, Lieut. (and, it seems, temporarily Captain) in the 5th battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. He was awarded the Military Cross for 'defending a bridgehead near Concevreux on May 27 1918' and gallantry leading his men in retreat May 27-30. I have the original handwritten 'recommendation' and the subsequent Gazette entry. Other than that, I know very little about him (he died in 1942 when I was 4 years old).

If you have information about the role of the 5th Battalion you could share, please do so. And if you'd like to see the documents above, perhaps you could point me as to how to include a .jpg file in a message. I'll try sending it as an Attachment.

Was it common practice to award a temporary promotion such as he seems to have been, maybe because of losses in the officer ranks?

[Guest don.b.anderson]

Hello,

My father, Cpl Alfred C anderson, 50th Div. 4th Green Howards, was taken prisoner at Craonne on 27 May 1918. At the time, I believe he was working with Royal Engineers at the front.

I was first in touch with David Blanchard in 2000 - but have since done much more research, including visits to Craonne and the PoW Camp site in Quedlinburg where he was held.

I know the history of his movements through France, before capture, etc.. but would like to understand more of what happened to him between 27th May and arriving in Quedlinburg in October.

I would value contact or information from anyone else who might like to share knowledge of others captured at Craonne, or held in Quedlinburg.

Don

ACA_at_war_synopsis.doc

[dannyhill86]

Hey Guys,

Fascinating thread!! I've learned an enormous amount just from this thread. Does anybody know more about the dispersal of units, particularly within the 19th Division. I am trying to find out about a Private with the 58th Field Ambulance RAMC who was killed on 3rd June. I assume he was involved in transporting the many wounded soldiers back to the various aid posts after the earlier fighting. Presumably he was killed by shelling on this date?

Does anybody know which brigade of the 19th Div that the 58th Field Amb were with at the time (possibly 58th Brigade?). Or have any information as to the placement of the field ambulances within 19th div at this time?

thanks,

Dan

[rugbyremembers]

Congrats to all on this fascinating thread. I am researching Charles Button of 5th/45th RFA, as he was a rugby player for Rosslyn Park while working as a bank clerk in London. Jimmy Button who has posted here about his great-uncle has been very helpful, and I have learned much here about the other units involved.

best wishes

Stephen (rugbyremembers)

[gil alcaix]

Thanks to all of you for this thread

I live in France and this is a great source of informations and discoveries. I work on the Chemin des Dames in general and on that battle of may-june 1918 in particular. I have a lot of infos about french army, and i am glad i can have some thanks to you all.

The life and death of all this young soldiers are so moving ...

Gil

[pap]

I am another researcher who has got so much from this thread, my grandfather was captured on the 27th he was in the 8th Border, he had been in th West Royal Kents.

When I found his Army papers and found he was missing on that day, I had no idea of Aisne, for me the WW1 was all about the Somme.

Pap

[David_Blanchard]

Hello,

It seems as though I have been away from my research into this battle an age! Busy at school and being a Dad I guess but hopefully should be able to spend more time answering questions on the Aisne.

Regards

David