cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 I have got to let the Pals know of a recent Ebay purchase. the original purchase was for a number of items found when building work was taking place in a cellar of a building in the most north eastern part of Mailly Maillet. The lot consisited of some cap badges, RA, MGC, Lancashire Fusiliers, ASC Shoulder title, Army Cyclist Caps Badge and a broken pocketwatch, rusty, with no glass frontage or hands and a litle knocked about and a buckle and button hook. I decided to attempt to clean the item and emersed it in vinegar. To my astonishment it came up like brand new. The case was in fact silver. Upon polishing I noticied a few marks scratched in to the case. The first I saw was 'JK'. I originally assumed this to be the owners initials. Further research led me to conclude that the mark JK was scratched on to an item by a pawnbroker when an item was pawned. So more likely a OR's purchase as it must have been secondhand when lost. After further cleaning I found a name written twice on different parts of the case. The name was 'Hugh Kerr'. I had to find a connection between the name and the location. I checked out SDGW and found a Rifleman Hugh Kerr 12th Bn RIR who was KIA July 1st 1916 when attacking the Thiepval ridge, on the NE side of the Ancre. I found that the 36th Ulster Division stayed for a while in the village of Mailly Maillet in March 1916 and I believe that the village was the actual reserve line for the battalion when out of the front line (If anyone could clarify I would be grateful). If anyone can give any details on Hugh Kerr or his battalion leading up to his ill fated attack or point me in the right direction I would be most pleased. Please see the images for the before and after cleaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Here is the watch after cleaning. If anyone has found items of similiar nature and been able to research the owner, I would like to hear you accounts. All the best, Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Oops, thats funny it didnt seem that big when I cleaned it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Is the watch French . It may well be given the lettering on the dial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Ian I believe it is french as it also has inscribed 'Cylindre 10 rubis' which refers to the movement. Other than that I know nothing of the watch. Cheers, Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Wow! What a stunning find. Of special interest to me because I like Mailly Maillet so much. This website here mentions the manufacturer, Alliance Horlogere, and says that the company was in Zurich (so it's a Swiss watch) and in production from 1918 to 1925. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 If only inanimate objects could speak I wonder if Kerr lost it in a card game or just lost it? Was th seller able to give you any other info? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Oh well, it is back to the drawing board, or a further look at the manufacturer, or the research of the name. I met the ebayer in person and chatted with him about the items and other items I have purchased. The authenticity is good. Obviously my research isn't. There is a little hole of about 2 years in my little 'story'. Tom thanks for the info. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 The authenticity is good. Obviously my research isn't. There is a little hole of about 2 years in my little 'story'. Not necessarily, Cooper. Two years isn't much, and whoever drew up the list on the website I quoted could well be out by two years, just as easily as you. I'd try to find out a little more about the company if I were you. I think you need to find at least one more source confirming the 1918 starting-date before you accept it as gospel. Go to Google and find a watch-expert site and ask a couple of questions there. And let us know what you find out! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2003 I have a map of where the actual house was in the village. He told me that some english workmen were renovating a building in the village, he chatted to them and mentioned he was a great war enthusiast. The workmen said that there was some bits in the cellar that otherwise would have been cleared out, if he wanted to have a look and take whatever he wanted he could. He picked up these items,a cleaning kit and gas mask parts. He was under the impression it was a CCS. But I do not know. That about all I know. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 25 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Tom, I will Email a few people in the industry who could let me know. I will let you know of how it goes. Ian, if only I could find out. Wouldn't that just be the icing on the cake?! I will keep you all posted. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 25 August , 2003 Share Posted 25 August , 2003 Most likely the watch belonged to a German soldier and was taken by a Brit chap as "souvenir"! Want to hear more of the possible story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 August , 2003 Share Posted 26 August , 2003 Do you count one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 August , 2003 Share Posted 26 August , 2003 ...and one together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 August , 2003 Share Posted 26 August , 2003 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 26 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2003 Egbert, where did your watch originate from? Thanks for the image, mine is or would have been in complete form the same. I would like to think that it was once captured from the germans, I may have to look at other marks on it. Watchmakers often left codes engraved every time that a watch was serviced or repaired. this seems to have a couple. More research may reveal something. Thanks, Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 August , 2003 Share Posted 26 August , 2003 First of all: I surfed the web yesterday evening for 2 hours to find anything suitable that fits "Alliance Horlogere" and variances to absolute no avail! Anybody more successful? Now the hint: the watch posted by me was that of my Granddad. He was KIA 1.5.1918 in France, had the watch in his possession and it was later returned to my Grandma with other belongings. I am not so sure that this is a true Swiss made watch. My Granddad must have bought it before 1918 in the German town of Pyritz (see engravement). I doubt that they could buy Swiss watches in the province since the Government was sure short of foreign currency to import luxury goods. Anyhow it must have been a pretty common watch in Germany. I suspect Hugh took it from a German lad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 26 August , 2003 Share Posted 26 August , 2003 There is a Federation Horlogere in Switzerland today. Might the Alliance Horlogere be a similar sort of trade body rather than a single company? Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 26 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 26 August , 2003 Egbert, thanks for looking, I also tried to find details on the manufacturer but to no avail. I have contacted the British Horological Society to see if they can give me any other details. I am awaiting a reply. Neil, that is a good theory and I will try to find some info on this. The evidence so far: find Location of Mailly Maillet Name scratched of Hugh Kerr( I do not know how well the scan shows the name) SDGW - Rifleman 18018 Hugh Kerr KIA July 1st 1916- 36th Ulster Division who reserve lines we around Mailly Maillet Letters 'JK' - Pawnbrokers Mark Origin german? -supported by Egberts evidence from his Grandfather. The pieces of the puzzle so far ( in my view) point to this: Possibly originally a captured pocketwatch, but not by Hugh. The soldier who was a little broke pawned the watch. Hugh or relative/friend etc came across the watch in a pawn shop and subsequently bought it. Lost by Hugh, whether card game etc or just falling from his pocket we dont know. You can just see the 'JK' in the image, just under is written the name. Does anyone else have any theories to offer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 28 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2003 Update, I have just recieved info On 'Alliance Horlogere' from the British Horological Society. It was first registered and started in 1912. Therefore the worry of the gap in the timeline is no more. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 28 August , 2003 Share Posted 28 August , 2003 Cooper, could you please share all your info about Alliance Horlogere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 28 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2003 Egbert, the info I have so far is: First started in 1912 Located in Zurich That it sbout it at the moment. I will pust more questions forward, will update with any answers if I get any. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 28 August , 2003 Share Posted 28 August , 2003 It amazes me how many relics are 'coming out of cellars' on the Somme these days... and news to me that 'English workmen' would be in a French village... interesting... By the way, the Ulster Division were only in Mailly-Maillet from November 1915 until the Spring of 1916; after that they moved to the Thiepval sector, and none of their dead or wounded from 1.7.16 ended up in Mailly. There was also no CCSs in Mailly, but there were several ADS. I suspect that such a watch would have been left behind in a billet when this unit was in the village 1915-16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 28 August , 2003 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2003 Paul, as it turns out, there is a belief that the house where the 'english workmen' were, was possibly owned by an english lady. The find location which was marked on the map is in that area. When I bought the items he thought it may have been a CCS. I have tried to look in to this and have found reference to and ADS being set up for the Battle of the Ancre (too late for our man). I just believe that the location was you say was simply a billet for the soldiers. I know the Ulster division were in Mailly Maillet in March 1916 also. The 12th Battalion were involved on July 1st 1916 north of the Ancre. I did not know whether Mailly was the reserve line or not. I am of the same belief that it was lost early 1916. Anyway, I have got a train to catch to London for a bit of a party weekend. Have a good weekend all and I will chat to you on my return. Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now