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Remembered Today:

ianw

Capt John Lauder

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Guest

Interesting. Do you have your grandfather's details. Army number, where from etc?

Mike

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Simon_Fielding

At least three MICs:

GeorgeTait Princess Louise's (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) 1754, 325149 GeorgeTait Princess Louise's (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) 2468, 300745 GeorgeTait Princess Louise's (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) S/3526

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Simon_Fielding

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ianw

Great to get what appears to be a final word on this.

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Guest

At the moment, it's just another version of his death, and not definitive, not that I have any reason to doubt it. We need more details on the soldier. It is at odds with the newspaper report in post #17. I have an unpublished account which mentions he was souvenir hunting when killed.

If we get this soldier's number, we can look for a service record. It my place him in the right place, at the right time.

Mike

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Simon_Fielding

What an interesting article - that really does clarify the mystery. Great bit of research.

What an interesting article - that really does clarify the mystery. Great bit of research.

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hazelclark

Interesting Mike. Thanks yet again.

Hazel C

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Ghazala

Harry Lauder wrote this moving piece after the war..

OVILLERS MILITARY CEMETERY

Captain John C LAUDER. 1st/8th Bn Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Age: 25

Date of Death 28/12/1916. Son of Sir Harry Lauder and Dame Annie Lauder, of "Laudervale," Dunoon, Argyll.

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 6.

"For Ovilliers is the spot where my son, Captain John Lauder, lies in his soldier's grave. "

We set out across a field that had been ripped and torn by shell fire. All about us there were little brown mounds, each with a white wooden cross upon it. All over the valley was thickly sown with crosses. And my own grief was altered by the vision of grief that had come to so many others. In the presence of so many evidences of grief and desolation, a private grief sank into its true perspective. It was no less keen, the agony at the thought of my boy was as sharp as ever. But that I was only one father.....God help us all!

I went alone to my boy’s grave and flung myself down on the warm, friendly earth...I was utterly spent. He was such a good boy! And as I lay there, as I look back upon it now, I can think of but the one desire that ruled and moved me. I wanted to reach my arms down into that dark grave, and clasp my boy tightly to my breast, and kiss him. And I wanted to thank him for what he had done for his country, and his mother, and for me

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Ghazala

There was another version...

Here is an extract from William Murray, Argylls veteran from the book “VOICES FROM WAR: Personal recollections of war in our century by Scottish men and women”.

Ian MacDougall, The Mercat Press, ISBN 1873644 450

“Lieutenant Lauder, Harry Lauder’s son, he was in the Argylls, too.

Oh he wis a ******. He wis very unpopular. Ah mean, he used tae wear a raincoat and ye didnae know if he was an officer or no. Ah think he did that deliberately. And ye maybe passed him and didnae salute and he would grab you. Ye would get a fortnight’s detention for no’ salutin’ an officer. Oh, he was very unpopular. He was shot in the back a’ right.

He had no confidence in his men at all. Ah mean, he jist treated them as outcasts. Ah don’t know whether he was class conscious or not. Ah didnae see why he should have been, because his faither wis only a comedian.

We were going over the top and he was shot in the back. It wis somebody in his own unit. I never had any dealings wi’ him but the men all knew he had been shot in the back, oh aye, they all knew. Well, if anybody is shot in the back it was deliberate

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Guest

Is this the same "Voices from War", and, if it is, is your quote, another example of 'creative writing'?

" I never had any dealings wi’ him " Exactly!

Mike

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garrettg

Thank you all for your imput. I always wondered why my grandfather `crawled out to get Lauder`..I always thought that if Lauder had been shot whilst looking over the top of the trench he would simply have slumped forward, or fallen back into the trench. The article referencing him going out to look at an unexploded shell explains this.

I realise that you have to verify my family story, however unfortunately don't know my grandfathers military number.

I can though give the following information, and hopefully someone will be able to undertake a search `somewhere`.

My Grandfather was ..George Tait, born 1877 in Dunoon. The local paper in Dunoon was thinking of using the picture that I have of Captain Lauder, along with the letter from his mother as part of a WW1 article. I called them today, and they will return the items to me soon, after which I will post a copy. Again, thank you all very much for your interest and help. I realise that the topic is of course about Captain Lauder and his death, but somehow its all helping me connecting in a way to my grandfather that I never knew. GG

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Andrew Upton

"Oh he wis a ******. He wis very unpopular. Ah mean, he used tae wear a raincoat and ye didnae know if he was an officer or no. Ah think he did that deliberately. And ye maybe passed him and didnae salute and he would grab you. Ye would get a fortnight’s detention for no’ salutin’ an officer.

Every time I see this quote, I find it flawed. Raincoats were pretty much worn exclusively by officers, and the only occasion I know of an OR in a raincoat concerned the fact he was being repeatedly mistaken for an officer when seen by other soldiers when he wore it! Your natural reaction in the period would be to assume someone in a raincoat was an officer, or officer class, and salute them accordingly, rather than try and get away without doing it...

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garrettg

I have managed to retrieve both the picture of young Lauder, and the short letter that Lady Lauder gave to my grandfather for trying to save her son. I`m going to try and post them now.. GG

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garrettg

I have managed to retrieve both the picture of young Lauder, and the short letter that Lady Lauder gave to my grandfather for trying to save her son. I`m going to try and post them now.. GG

sorry, I cant download the photos..it seems that they re too large ?.can anyone help ?

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Guest

There are a number of free image resizing programs. Here's one Click but search around

Mike

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Simon_Fielding

If you PM me I'm happy to help...

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Derek Black

Here's the photo and note of Garreths.

gt1_zpsnnb4ev40.jpg

gt2_zps3mbeluhd.jpg

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dove

I realise this is an old thread but wonder if anyone could help me.....My grandfather whom I never had the opportunity to meet sadly received a Military Medal while serving with the Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders 1/8 division No 5688/302903 in WW1 his name was Angus McNab. I’m currently in the process of researching my family history and trying to find evidence to confirm the story that my mum told me over and over of my grandfather receiving the MM for saving Sir Harry’s Lauders son who was an officer in his regiment. Mum explained that had it been an officer from another regiment he would have received the VC. My mum and her siblings all knew of this story but I have read Sir Harry’s account and the only incident he mentions was of his son having a ‘minor’ injury and not coming home at one point prior to his death. I have searched and read but can’t find anything, so if there’s is anyone who can help I would be eternally grateful!

 

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helpjpl
21 hours ago, dove said:

I realise this is an old thread but wonder if anyone could help me.....My grandfather whom I never had the opportunity to meet sadly received a Military Medal while serving with the Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders 1/8 division No 5688/302903 in WW1 his name was Angus McNab. I’m currently in the process of researching my family history and trying to find evidence to confirm the story that my mum told me over and over of my grandfather receiving the MM for saving Sir Harry’s Lauders son who was an officer in his regiment. Mum explained that had it been an officer from another regiment he would have received the VC. My mum and her siblings all knew of this story but I have read Sir Harry’s account and the only incident he mentions was of his son having a ‘minor’ injury and not coming home at one point prior to his death. I have searched and read but can’t find anything, so if there’s is anyone who can help I would be eternally grateful!

 

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Your grandfather's Military Medal was announced in the London Gazette on 11 May 1917:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30064/supplement/4599/data.pdf

 

His WW1 medals were put up for auction in 2017(edit). See Lot 34:

http://www.auction-net.co.uk/viewAuction.php?id=2581

McNab.jpg.02ce96082cf3933b15becad3891fae87.jpg

 

JP

 

 

Edited by helpjpl
2017

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MaxD

You might like to trawl through the war diary of 1/8 Battalion (which he was serving with at the time) here at the National Archives:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354773

 

Here on Ancestry:https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2865_2-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

 

A medal published in May 1917 suggests an action 2 to 3 months prior to that..

 

Good luck

 

Max

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helpjpl

Your grandfather was almost certainly awarded the Military Medal for his action during a raiding party on enemy trenches on 17 March 1917 and 2nd Lt. John Bickerton Robertson was awarded the Military Cross:

 

War Diary from ancestry:

1427335512_WarDiary.jpg.67517c737c99072cf74edc8e52c48fe6.jpg

 

Go to page 134

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2865_2-00113?pid=501548&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DUQZ22%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3D

 

2nd Lt John Bickerton Robertson, 1/8th Battalion, London Gazette 11 May 1917:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30064/supplement/4592

 

Captain Lauder was killed on 28 December 1916 - see #28 for entry in War Diary.

 

JP

Edited by helpjpl
to add link

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MaxD

Absolutely right.  The award was published in 51st Division's Routine Orders on 23 March 1917, attached.  The XVII Corps Commander Lt Gen Sir C Fergusson presented ribbons to those so recognized on 1 April 1917 (in 152 Brigade diary).

The 152 Brigade diary (March 1917 begins here https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2865_2-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43849_2862_0-00082 has a number of detailed accounts with maps of the raid in which he won his MM.

 

Max 

43112_2849_0-00045.jpg

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