British dead from March 1918. German burials

[steve fuller]

Hi Pals

When the germans overran the Aisne / Somme areas March 1918 and cleared the field afterwards, I imagine they would they have recorded who was buried where, but would those records still be available?

I noticed that all the 7th Bedfords that fell in the first few days have no known grave. Now, I appreciate that the graves of men who were found & ID'd were probably destroyed in the fighting August onwards, and the smaller cemeteries were collected together after the war, but it still strikes me as odd that none of them were identifyable. The casualties in the area Im looking at were all colelcted & put into Montescourt & Chauny cemeteries, FYI ...

Be interested to learn & hear your opinions Pals

Steve

[John_Hartley]

Steve

I suspect that less care is taken with the ID and burial of the enemy than with your own. It certainly accounts for so many "missings". I presume (but don't know) there would be similar ratios in German casualties that were buried by Allied troops.

John

[steve fuller]

Fair comment John. Probably will turn out to be the case but thought Id ask. If I could even ID one of them, it would be a victory to my mind!

Cheers mate

Steve

[Guest Simon Bull]

Surely it must also be the case that either side had limited resources when identifying the other side's dead - ie not the clerical records to check re which unit the person was in etc and not the colleagues of the dead to identify them.

[steve fuller]

Surely it must also be the case that either side had limited resources when identifying the other side's dead - ie not the clerical records to check re which unit the person was in etc and not the colleagues of the dead to identify them.

Oh, absolutely Simon. Was hoping that personal items (that werent rifled through), ID tags, Regt collar badges, etc may have been recorded somewhere? Y'know, jst the basics that may help at a later stage?

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Steve

I have found the same with the 6/K.S.L.I., of all the men killed in action during the March fighting only ten have known graves (I am not counting those who Died of Wounds, as most of these were buried by British and so have known graves). I think many of the dead both British and Germans were not buried until many weeks or evan longer after the battle because the Germans could not share its man power too look for the dead and bury them ?

Annette

[Doug Johnson]

In the latter part of the war, PoW's were kept behind German lines and were used in a number of tasks such as digging trenches, moving munitions and burying the dead. The accounts I have read make no mention of any record keeping and the circumstances suggest that burying them was the sole priority. This even included German dead! Manpower was in very short supply by the end of the war.

Doug

[steve fuller]

Thanks Annette & Doug

Thought it may be nice to do some research around the records, but doesnt seem to be a chance of that from whats been said, so perhaps Id better leave it there. Oh well ...

Many thanks Pals

[FredJCarss]

This is part of the official report of a Black Watch POW:-

We paraded every morning at 5.30, and went out on working parties: our job was salvage of shells and burying the dead. This was round Bullecourt. Most of our dead were mere skeletons with a few rags on, and had evidently been there a long time. All theirboots had been taken and there were no discs on the bodies. On one australian we found 300 francs in paper but it dropped to pieces when we touched it. The work was very severe as we were all in an utterly exhausted condition from lack of food.

Hope you find this of interest.

Fred

[Paul Johnson]

Steve,

I think it's a bit of a long shot on this one. The POW Records held at the NA include those that died whilst in German hands but I don't know of any records kept that identified battlefield casualties. I know very little about German archives but I am certain that we would have heard of the existence of any such records by now (but you never know!).

I don't think we appreciate the speed at which the advance was made in March 1918 nor can we comprehend the casualties. My guess is that many bodies were simply covered over as quickly as possible and not much account was taken regarding who they were.

Is there a reason for your question? Do you think you may be able to identify some of the Unknown's? It would be great if you could.

Regards

PAUL J

Edited 15 December , 2005 by Paul Johnson

[dycer]

Steve,

This is merely conjecture on my part but do the Cemeteries in the area not record the reality of what happened.

For example my Uncle was killled in the Morchies-Beaumetz area in March 1918 and has no known grave.

I stopped at a Cemetery on the Bapaume to Cambrai road near these Villages a few years ago and noted that there are many mass graves.

Would this not suggest ,that in view of the number of casualties,time,lack of manpower,etc many of the dead were buried en-masse with no individual ceremony.

George

[roel22]

I know very little about German archives but I am certain that we would have heard of the existence of any such records by know (but you never know!).

Vitually all archives of the (Prussian) Army were lost in WW2. So very little chance of finding anything there, I'm afraid.

[Doug Johnson]

In "Prisoner of the Kaiser" by Richard van Emden, Bill Easton talks of burying the dead at a Hospital at Conde. Up to ten unnamed coffins at a time were loaded onto a cart and buried in any order in unmarked graves. No records were kept of which coffin went where though no doubt there was a central list of who had died.

Doug

[steve fuller]

Good info Pals, thank you very much.

Paul - was asking to try & work out the odds of calculating which cem he was buried in, assuming he was of course. Been scouring cem records & working out where the dead from the stretch of the Crozat Canal that he was killed on are. None of the 54th Bgde that fell in that phase of the battle are buried & identified, so would like to try & find someone when Im there in Jan. Prob not realistic but who knows!

Bit of a bonus BTW mate - found his obit in the Kettering archives!!!! Was a Lewis Gunner in the 7th Beds when killed and that he went to the 7th in Jan 1918, & I already know he was a Vickers gunner in the 5th Beds in Gallipoli / Egypt, so the only snipet of info Im missing now is the excact date he left Paletsine!! Getting there ... will post the info elsewhere though. AND the CWGC have just accepted his reviewed entry, but will put it somewhere else. Goes to show that persistance pays off eh?!

[kinnethmont]

I think it's a bit of a long shot on this one. The POW Records held at the NA include those that died whilst in German hands but I don't know of any records kept that identified battlefield casualties. I know very little about German archives but I am certain that we would have heard of the existence of any such records by now (but you never know!).

Paul Can you advise the level of detail held in the POW records at NA?

Sounds interesting