lesley mc Posted 6 December , 2005 Share Posted 6 December , 2005 Does anyone know the reason for the needless exercise at wytschete in december 1914 that killed my great grandad at the age of 31?He was lost in action on that day.The Gordons were wiped out to the tune of over 500 men that day.thank you .Lesley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Sorry I don't, but I notice that you are new here (hello!) and it's not often a first post doesn't get a response quickly. So, by responding, I've bumped it back up the 'new posts' list. Hopefully someone will spot it and help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Does anyone know the reason for the needless exercise at wytschete in december 1914 that killed my great grandad at the age of 31?He was lost in action on that day.The Gordons were wiped out to the tune of over 500 men that day.thank you .Lesley. There are some Gordon's (unknown) burried on Irish House Cemetery. They ware almost sure in the attack you mentioned. They were burried much later by the 16th Irish Division, after having been for months and months in the nomansland. The Divisional Commander allowed no temporary truce to bury them (if I am correct it was Haldane- 3th Div). You will never know, but maybe your grandad is one of them? Just out of interest: do you have some more information on him? Maybe a photo? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 The 1st Gordons War Diary merely give the following. DATE EVENT 1914 After the very heavy losses at Mons; Le Cateau; 1st Marne; Aisne; La Bassée and 1st Ypres, suffered during the first months of the Great War. By late November 1914, the old British Army had virtually disappeared. The first winter 1914/1915 was relatively quiet, and saw a period of training, with the 1st Gordons joining its brigade at Locres on 2nd December 1914. Drafts were arriving to bring the battalion up to strength, with Territorial battalions sent out from the UK, towards the end of 1914. 1st Gordons on 14th December 1914 were engaged in an operation at Messives Ridge with 8th Brigade, and again lost heavily. 1915 Into the New Year the 1st Gordons were in billets at Westoutre and Locres, later in trenches at Vierstraat with shelling and some casualties. Later at La Clytte, Westoutre in billets, drafts arrived to augment strength, some 200 NCOs and men, including 3rd Battalion, and reservists amounting to a further 160 men. Aye Malcolm ps. welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 This incident is also mentioned in 'The Journal of Private Fraser'; Donald Fraser, a Scotsmen, went out and investigated them when he was there with the 31st CEF in November 1915. There are also more details in my own 'Walking The Salient'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Just some more details to the excellent account on Chris article. Gordon Highlanders had 121 killed. Only 6 have a known grave: 3 at Irish House, 2 at Kemmel Churchyard and 1 in Locre Churchyard. The rest is commemorated on the Menin Gate. Am I correct in supposing that private Robson of 2nd Royal Scots won a VC during this action ? Anyway Lesley give me the details of your great grandad and we will commemorate him on Saturday the 17th December under the Menin Gate. Best wishes, Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 This incident is also mentioned in 'The Journal of Private Fraser'; Donald Fraser, a Scotsmen, went out and investigated them when he was there with the 31st CEF in November 1915. There are also more details in my own 'Walking The Salient'. Paul I presume this is about the incident in my post? I haven't a copy of one of these books but will try to lend (or buy) them somewhere, because I do not have details and am quite interested in this incident since I "discovered" these graves. Is it true that Haldane refused a Christmas truce then? Thanks for the tip. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Hi Erwin - yes, this is the same incident. Both books are widely available in bookshops at Ieper! Below is a map of the area, showing where the men were re-buried and the location of the action where they died. This is taken from a Powerpoint I did a while back for a lecture on cemeteries in the Salient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Anyway Lesley give me the details of your great grandad and we will commemorate him on Saturday the 17th December under the Menin Gate. Best wishes, Jacky Nice gesture Jacky. Thanks to Jacky, who took the below image for me a few years ago, I am also able to offer a photo of the main headstone that commemorates these Gordons in Irish House Cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Thanks Paul There are many books in the bookshops of Ypres which should be on my bookshelf . Problem is that I have to stack them up on the floor already, a problem which seems to be familiar to many Pals. Thanks for the additional information, I will try to have a lookup in the 3rd Div diary next time I'll go to Kew. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Seeing where they died fighting, they should have layed there for 2 1/2 year? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Seeing where they died fighting, they should have layed there for 2 1/2 year? Erwin Yes, they were buried by the Pioneer Battalion of the 36th (Ulster) Division in June 1917. Fraser records many more out in No Man's Land, who sadly were no longer there in 1917. He even names one of them in his account. I just remembered the incident, and bodies in No Man's Land, are also mentioned in the 'Burgoyne Diaries', the diaries of Captain G.A.Burgoyne, 2nd Ryl Irish Rifles, who saw them in early 1915. Another great book about the Salient you shouldn't be without! Out of print now, but I have seen copies in the Shell Hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Just a coincidence I researched thas a little bit today as I was intrigued by the number of casualties by the Gordons. Last saturday I prepared the list of soldiers to be commemaorated that evening under the Menin Gate when my attention was drawn to this 14th December which seems a "normal" day in winter trench life. To my surprise there is a lot to find on this in the Regimental histories of the Gordons and the Royal Scots. However what I found quit unbelievable almost unreal was that Edmund's Official History described this attack under the heading of 'demonstration attacks'. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Yes, they were buried by the Pioneer Battalion of the 36th (Ulster) Division in June 1917. Fraser records many more out in No Man's Land, who sadly were no longer there in 1917. He even names one of them in his account. I just remembered the incident, and bodies in No Man's Land, are also mentioned in the 'Burgoyne Diaries', the diaries of Captain G.A.Burgoyne, 2nd Ryl Irish Rifles, who saw them in early 1915. Another great book about the Salient you shouldn't be without! Out of print now, but I have seen copies in the Shell Hole. Paul Strange that this was done by the 36th Division. Only a few days later it was almost in the centre of the 16th Div attack on Wijtschate. I know that both Irish divisions were moving around in this area for almost a year, and the sectors changed regularly. But a change between two Divisions so close before the Battle of Messines is very strange, especially because they were both involved in the first wave of this Battle. Also, regarding the place where they were kiled, I presume that this area was only accessible from the the 7th of June onwards. Are you shure the burial wasn't done by the 16th Irish Division instead of the 36th? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Erwin - the graves were cleared after the Battle of Messines. I am pretty sure it was 36th Division, as I looked at the relevant War Diary for Walking The Salient. Remember after the battle had moved beyond the village of Whitesheet, the old pre-7th June divisional boundaries would have not been relevant. I expect this pioneer unit was just detailed to clear the battlefield of the dead; indeed, they established several burial grounds in this area at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 Erwin - the graves were cleared after the Battle of Messines. I am pretty sure it was 36th Division, as I looked at the relevant War Diary for Walking The Salient. Remember after the battle had moved beyond the village of Whitesheet, the old pre-7th June divisional boundaries would have not been relevant. I expect this pioneer unit was just detailed to clear the battlefield of the dead; indeed, they established several burial grounds in this area at the time. Ok, thanks. This is very interesting. I had always thought they were buried by 16th Div. Never to old to learn. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 See what a little light 'bumping' can do?! Well done everyone - a really good response for a new member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 7 December , 2005 Share Posted 7 December , 2005 I hope this doesn't come to an end immediately, because I stay interested in the photo or other information about the man. Maybe it need another few bumps? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 13 December , 2005 Share Posted 13 December , 2005 Still no reaction from the topic starter? Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 14 December , 2005 Share Posted 14 December , 2005 IF I am correct, it is just something I heard, than this was a demonstration attack for the Prince of Wales. I heard something about this just today, and it would match the time and the area. I know there is a testimony from someone who followed the attack from Mount Kemmel. I am not sure if the area we are talking about is to be seen from there. Sorry, if this is complete nonsense, it is just something I heard. Bert and p.s. 1/Gordons war diaries are available to download from N.A.'s documents online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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