Talgarth Mental Hospital-burial ground

[burlington]

OK, I will raise it with them.

Thanks

Martin

[spike10764]

Are we saying, therefore, that this chap should be moved to "decent" surroundings, but the civilian patients should be left where they are?

If so, then it's a funny old world, innit?

No John, in matter of fact, on reflection, moving him may be not a good idea. I take your point about the other burials. I would like to see the area tidied up though and maybe the picket fence Martin describes in his first post

The place is in poor condition and the new owner of the property is going to erect a picket fence around it.

I can see the CWGC tidying the area around the grave(s) they are responsible for, but other than impressing on the landowner the moral obligation to tidy the area up a bit the civilian graves, like so many in our cemeteries have to look after themselves.

The best course of action is for CWGC to make an agreement with the landowner for future maintenance.

Chris, I too hope you are getting better and have the people around you to help you most.

[Bernard_Lewis]

6th Welsh was of course the Swansea Terrirorial Force.

Having written a book on the Swansea Workhouse I know of paupers' graves in Swansea with up to 15 bodies in them (some of them stillborn or small children).

And today a typical non-pauper 'family'grave will have room for up to 3 or 4 burials. Its never been 'one to a grave' though the Poor Law and its degrading burial practices were designed especially to keep people OFF the poor rates.

Bernard

Bernard

[John_Hartley]

William Jones, a Rorkes Drift VC winner, is buried at Manchester's Philips Park Cemetery in a pauper's grave. The area has been grassed over for some considerable while and it took a local campaign to get some recognition (by way of a plaque in the grass) for Jones.

In fairness, I have to say, "campaign" is much to strong a word as the Council was very amenable to doing it once the issue had been raised)

[john w.]

As to the circumstances of his death, research should continue until this has been established, perhaps registers from the hospital may exist.

The condition of the cemetery is the concern and I believe the main thrust of the thread, looking at the first post, and not necessarily the moving of the remains.

Cemeteries like this exist all around the country and I am sure that we all know of at least one. Why they are allowed to get in this state, is known only to those who are in control.

John

[ian turner]

John,

A copy of his death certificate should be readily available - 1837 online?

Ian

[Guest]

Why they are allowed to get in this state, is known only to those who are in control.

This is intended as a general point and no reflection on the current landowner at Talgarth, who does appear to be somewhat concerned about the situation.

They get in this state because they are in private ownership and not all private owners have the time, money, or interest to keep the site maintained. The once privately owned Arnos Vale Cemetery, which ended up being compulsorily purchesed by the Council, is a case in point, but it is a large and historically important cemetery. Otherwise, such action is rare and there is not really the money to do it anyway.

(Note: the Secretary of State has to approve compulsory purchase orders and this is not routinely done where the land is not to be sold on at nil cost to the Council for development in some way).

Small and "unimportant" locations like Talgarth are not near the top of the official food chain.

[john w.]

I agree Angie... but if you have respect for the dead then you would not let the cemetery get in that state in the first place. If you agree to take it on then you have a moral duty to those buried there to deal with it.

Where would the War graves be if we all took that attitude to the dead?

I am not saying that he should be moved but the environment in which he finds himself isnt really as it should be.

john

[John_Hartley]

They get in this state because they are in private ownership and not all private owners have the time, money, or interest to keep the site maintained. .

There was also an infamous and shameful case of a local authority flogging off its cemeteries, only a few years back. With the anticipated disastrous consequences for maintenance, etc.

John

[Guest]

Where would the War graves be if we all took that attitude to the dead?

Well I was just trying to explain, not justify.

You can of course so argue, but it remains an argument without understanding what happens.

I can think of at least one former owner of a private cemetery whose plan was to sell it for commercial development at a considerable profit. To be fair, given the maintenance cost, his other options were to walk away and neglect the site, or to slowly go broke, because he had no income to cover his costs.

[john w.]

No argument , was speaking rhetorically...

I understand the argument, just wish they cemeterires all looked like cwgc

John

[corisande]

Somebody seems to have come across this recently in this Rootschat thread

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?t...w;topicseen#new

I assume nothing became of the original posts here.

What the Rootschat thread does do is raise doubts on who he was.

The medal card for "Lewis J Lewis" says he was discharged in 1918, and he has the numbers 2940 and 241133 (which appears to confirm that he was serving after 1916)

CWGC and SDGW say "John Lewis " 2940 died Oct 1915

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I might like to comment on what on earth is going on here.

I suspect that there are 2 Lewises. One a regular 2940 who joined up way back and eventually died in the mental hospital without going abroad

and a second volunteer who had the same number bout different initials. Someone with knowledge of dates of service numbers may be able to comment

[jon_armstrong]

Reply #15 on the Rootschat thread explains the confusion about the numbers.

There's also another thread on a different forum about him here http://www.urbexforums.co.uk/showthread.ph...-Jan-2010/page3

SDGW has him as "Died" rather than "Died of Wounds", which together with no MIC tends to suggest he never went overseas.

[headgardener]

I was the one on that thread on Rootschat who first pointed out that the MIC was for a different person.

Apart from anything else the MIC is for L.J. Lewis rather than J. Lewis. Same pre-1917 TF No., but another man I reckon.

[sitush]

I was at this site over the weekend, staying in one of the former hospital staff houses.

Lewis was listed as a deserter from C Company, 2/6th Glamorgan Bn, Welsh Regt, in Battalion Orders dated 30 April 1915. He and two other deserters (3112 Pte J. O. Jones and 2679 Pte G. T. Bryant) were struck off the battalion's strength on 28 April. I've no idea where the battalion was based at that time but given where Lewis ended up, it might be surmised that mental instability was the cause of his desertion.

[sitush]

There is a bit about him at http://www.cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/3857857/7/ART73/ Served "Boar War" (sic) and re-enlisted for WWI.

[Moriaty]

Does anyone know what happened to the grave of Private Lewis who was buried in the grounds of the Talgarth Mental Hospital which, I assume, have now been re-developed?

[Scalyback]

I think redevelopment was placed on hold. Will be passing the area in a few weeks time so will have a look around.  

[Moriaty]

Many thanks Scalyback

Moriaty

[PhilB]

The Talgarth History refers to Pte Lewis dying in the Military Wing of the hospital. It seems odd that only one military grave resulted from the wing?

[Scalyback]

The only link I can think of is Brecon with the barracks or the wing was say four beds and not widely used? 

Might pop up tomorrow, fingers crossed. 

[Scalyback]

Further. Did not manage the trip today, my day off and various things got in the way. Managed a sit down at 5! I shall endeavour to get up there by half term at the latest. 

[johntanner]

Cwgc still record burial as at Talgarth Hospital Cemetery, with photo of grave.

[Scalyback]

Not sure if many are still involved in this?

 

Has anyone researched John Lewis in full? I will check on the grave shortly via a trip to Hay on Wye. 

[Ron Lines]

I have seen recent pictures of this man grave and it looks a lot cleaner and the ground around has been cleaned up. I have read that he could have been a deserter who was put into the then mental hospital suffering from shell shock in the first world war. This was also a military hospital for POW's run by 99 prisoner of war in the Second world war,  POW,s who were treated here in WWII and who died here were buried in a small plot by the gate in Hay On Wye new cemetery, 4 Italian and 10 German I think as well as one British soldier . Also to be noted, there are 5 CWWG graves in Talgarth church cemetery from the Second world war .   

Edited 20 September , 2020 by Ron Lines