London Gazette

[Potter]

I've read previous helpful posts by Forum members about why the LG search engine doesn't locate clearly identified names and I've tried all the suggestions to defeat the engine which amalgamates last and first line words and can't recognise initials separated or not by full stops, words split by hyphens etc. However, I spent hours today on two men (I have initials and surnames, and medals awarded and approximate date of the action) and can't raise them.

Here is a primary source for military and family historians and it doesn't work. The site doesn't even give you access to medal award supplements so you can plough through the lists yourself.

Two questions to Forum friends:

a) If I want to find out the date of an action for which a medal was awarded and the citation, is there any other alternative to this hell-hole of a site?

Is there any recogniiton by LG that the site is c**p and they are working on improving it?

Yours in total frustration,

Phil

[Stebie9173]

The NA has original copies of the Gazette i believe as does the British Library Newspaper section at Colindale. Some/most(?) of the awards were also in the Times. MMs certainly were, but not sure yet about citations for MCs.

If you want me to have a look for it I'll do so if you let me know the name. An MC will likely need full name e.g. "Walter Melrose Smyth".

In answer to b, not a hope...

If you want to find the supplements type in "Military Cross" into the search box or use the drop down box at the bottom.

As for Military Medals I have a 99% list for 1916 and 1917 (at home).

It doesn't necessarily find them all but it gives you a fighting chance.

Anyway, offer is open if you want it...

Steve.

Edited 29 November , 2005 by Stebie9173

[Potter]

Thanks, Steve.

The level of knowledge and willingness to help on this forum never ceases to amaze me!

The men I've been hunting are both from 8th North Staffords, awards relating to actions between 2 - 14 September 1915:

MC Capt R F Wynne

DCM 13693 Pte Samuel Bailey

Best wishes

Phil

[Stebie9173]

13693 North Staffordshire Regiment is Josiah S Jones per the MICs.

There is a "12083 Private G. Bailey,- 8th Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment." announced in the Gazette of 14-1-1916.

Ah, gotcha. You mean 13632 Samuel Bailey?

London Gazette 11-3-1916

13632 Private S. Bailey, 8th Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment.

For conspicuous gallantry, when he assisted to bring in, under heavy shell and trench mortar fire, men who had been blown over the parapet and impaled on our wire, about 80 yards from the enemy's trench. He was the first man over the parapet, and was afterwards sent back for the wire cutters.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...&selHonourType=

There may have been an earlier announcement which I can't locate.

Wynne later? Do you have his full name?

Steve.

[stiletto_33853]

Phil,

Checked Walkers for you on the DCM, the only S. Bailey listed was indeed from the 8th Btn. His Regimental number is given as 13632 though. If this is the gentleman his LG date was 11/3/16. I see Steve beat me too it, well done Steve.

Andy

[Glosters]

Regarding the problems with the search engine, people are being too critical.

The London Gazette had no choice but to use OCR if they wanted to provide an online searchable archive. The only other option was for someone to sit there and type every word by hand.

They also deserve a huge thankyou for making the archive available for FREE. Unlike most other UK based archives, which charge for access.

Yes, the limitations of OCR make searching difficult. But the answer to b. is : there is nothing that can be done to improve matters until someone invents an alternative to OCR.

Regards,

Steve

Edited 29 November , 2005 by Glosters

[Andrew Hesketh]

They also deserve a huge thankyou for making the archive available for FREE. Unlike most other UK based archives, which charge for access.

I agree 100% with that (NA take note).

However, OCR only does the scanning. The design of the search engine is a different kettle of fish.

And it is pants.

Very big ones.

With flares........

[Stebie9173]

Of course the search engine can't cope with this:

177i-8'Pte. H. P.. Cornelius, ;Sbm, "L.I. (Aber- -

. dare). - - , ' ' - • . • •

24184 Pte. T. Corpe,'.N: -and .Derby. R.'

. .(Derby). ' ' '- , ,J

.M'.2/ 131802 -Pte. J.,H. Cottam, A,S;C:.

w (Blackburn). '

8129 -L. /C. J.'-Cotterelli R. .- Berks: R. -(Cran'-"

ford)! ' ' ". ' : • - . . ' ' • .

402;S.jt.J.:;Co.uper,'R.F.%A.. (-Dundee).: ' . .

4926 ^SjtJ-::H:v

;Cbvef dale, 'Mancfi.' R; .(.Manchester);

• • . . . . ; . .*' . . ;

2Q79!2''L./C. (A:/C'pli) -'B. S-. -H: .Cpwdrey,1 '

R.E. (Gorton).

B./ 200532'" Pte. : B . Cowell, iR . 'Bde. (Harpen- .

den). " ; • ' - . -. , ' -. " . . . _

3041438L:/C. J.-'Cfowley/'LoridAR.^.Bair.net). -

T4 / 23.9964 ,S jt.' G."Cownvden, A.^S . C.

182 L../p. B. E./Caadingb,o^l,'Liric..R. .(G

Copied direct from an issue of the Gazette. This is what the database is using to search.

Of course, this is the worst issue I've encountered so far...

The way that the names are laid out doesn't always help, either.

Steve.

[Glosters]

As Steve shows above, the OCR cannot cope with old newspaper style sheets. The OCR tries to convert what it 'sees' into text. The search engine then has to search what has been provided by the OCR.

There is probably nothing wrong with the search engine that they used. It is just an unfortunate problem with OCR, but there isn't really an alternative.

Regards

Steve

[Andrew Hesketh]

I stand corrected gentlemen.

[Potter]

Steve, Andy,

Many thanks for the look-up on Sam Bailey. I don't have any details of names for Capt R F Wynne. He got the MC for the same action as Bailey which was sometime between 3 -14 September 1915.

If you can help with Wynne, I'd be grateful. Also one further question: my sources (which include the 8th NS War Diary) do not give the date for the Wynne/Bailey action, nor does the LG citation. Are there any other sources that might?

Thanks for the comments from everyone on the LG. I suppose we should be grateful the LG is free but it reduced me to a raving madman yesterday.

Best wishes

Phil

[welshdoc]

But look at the feeling of acheivement when you sort out a LG search.

Ive found that searching for promotions of officers etc seems to work really well on the LG prehaps these are because Ive been looking for more modern (post WW1) information. As for other searches Ive at times resorted to wading through awards lists verses names, takes ages but does sometimes work. Its a challenge for sure. What drives me mad is when number searches dont work, I would have thought these would be more clear cut than names. Im currently stuck on a name with a dreaded hyphen! Gareth

[Max (UK)]

I think the LG is fantastic - I appreciate that there are problems, but I am very grateful they have done what they have. I recently spent six hours in front of a Microfiche machine looking for a name and it was frustrating, made me feel queezy and unsuccessful !

[welshdoc]

I havnt used microfilche for years and I agree its horrid I used to get "car sick". Gareth

[Ludovica]

Much as I applaud "open access" I'm wondering if there is anyway for the pages to be subtitled at the top in very long lists. If you find a reference to a certain name you often have to plough back an awfully long way to find out what that person has actually been awarded. I just spent several hours looking for Manktelow/Mancktelow/Mantelow/Mankelow (and all sorts of other variants of same) and to be quite honest, I gave up, overwhelmed by the amount of backtracking necessary. Quite impractical on dial-up

[SteveE]

Perhaps a question for our resident Gazette expert but has anybody managed to do a search based on a battalion?

The battalion references appear to be written in italics so when you put the desired text in the search option it produces nothing, not a thing, even though I know they're there.

Is there a way around this or am I, as I suspect, stuck with it.

Steve

[chris.wight]

The London Gazette people do seem to have introduced some changes; I don't seem to remember the "Go to page number" feature being there last year. I do think adding a "Go to Issue number" would be a useful addition. You can enter the issue number directly into the address line but not everyone realises that.

[Stebie9173]

Steve,

I've noticed the same with the battalions (i.e. the italics)

Besides the Gazette OCR has a penchant for changing Rs into Es or Bs. Boyal Berkshire Eegiment, anyone?

As some might have seen, I am putting together an Excel index of the British Units MMs for which I have 1916 and 1917 completed. Anyone needing a Regimental list only needs to ask (I'm waiting in dread for the day that someone utters the words Engineers or Artillery). The full list is a little unwieldy at the moment and still a WIP (1918, 1919 and corrections published in 1919 still not added).

Steve.

[enoch beard]

mr j elson's honours and awards(n.staffs) lists the following-

captain reginald francis wynne 8th battalion london gazette 14/1/16 page 586

new year honours no citation