TF Numbering Artillery

[shinglma]

The title says it all really. I wondered if it was possible to identify the unit of a TF artillery man from his number.

Just a general enquiry.

Mike

[Graham Stewart]

Mike,

You certainly can if it's a later six figure number and I have all of the ACI's which refer you to the numbers that were issued in 1917 to all of those T.F. units involved.

Graham.

Any number in particular?

[KONDOA]

Graham, Do you have the ACI's that refer to New Army battery renumbering ??

Roop

[shinglma]

Any number in particular?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Graham

No as I say it was just a general enquiry. What sort of detail can one ascertain from the ACI's - battery or brigade level?

Thanks for your reply

Mike

[Graham Stewart]

Mike,

The new T.F.Artillery renumbering is actually done by Brigade and Ammunition Column, because the Ammo Columns were re-identified as seperate sections and all their personnel were renumbered in 1915. I have the new numbers for RHA(TF), RFA(TF) & RGA(TF) personnel.

For instance;-

Inverness-shire RHA were renumbered 600001 - 602000.

1st Bde,RFA(TF), Highland Division were renumbered 630001 - 635000.

4th Bde,RGA(TF), Highland Division were renumbered 300001 - 306000.

Fife Heavy Bty,RGA(TF), Highland Division was renumbered 306001 - 307000.

Roop,

Do you mean renumbering of personnel or renumbering of the Bde's as a whole?

Graham.

[KONDOA]

Hi Graham,

For example, the personell of the Hull Batteries ie 11th Hull & 124th Hull HB's were renumbered in 1917 despite being New Army. Their formation though stemmed from the East Yorks Territorial Association so were initially numbered as TF men.

Roop

[Graham Stewart]

Roop,

Hull Heavy Bty,RGA isn't mentioned by name in the original ACI, but East Riding,RGA are and they're renumbered 382001 - 388000. I know that some additional numbering did take place for some TF units and I'll look through the ACI's I have to see if they mention Hull Heavy Bty.

Graham.

[KONDOA]

Thanks Graham,

The numbering for the 11th starts at around 290008 and the 124th at around 290336. Any further info would be appreciated.

Roop

[Graham Stewart]

Roop,

Will get onto the case ASAP, but as I suspected yours are additional to the original numbers issued the new RGA(TF) numbers began at 300001 with the 4th Bde, Highland Division.

Now here's a theory for the other Heavy Batteries they actually go up in batches of about a 1000, so your number may have ran from 2900001 - 300000. This would enable it to run in sequence with those numbers already issued.

Graham.

[GJB]

Mike,

You certainly can if it's a later six figure number and I have all of the ACI's which refer you to the numbers that were issued in 1917 to all of those T.F. units involved.

Graham.

Any number in particular?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Graham

You may be able to give me the unit of 230827 Elias Palmer RGA

Gary

[Graham Stewart]

GJB,

I think I may have created a bit of a monster here over the new six figure numbers issued in 1917. I should have actually given the full sequence of numbers as they run for the RHA(TF), RFA(TF) AND RGA(TF), because I failed to realise that the artillery had already started issuing six figure numbers prior to 1917, and so there are some numbers which don't fall into the new TF series.

RHA(TF) new 1917 numbers 600001 - 628000.

RFA(TF) new 1917 numbers 630001 - 975000.

RGA(TF) new 1917 numbers 300001 - 388000.

Hull Heavy Batteries possibly 290001 - 300000.

Regular Army RHA & RFA prewar numbers 1 - 99999.

Regular Army RGA prewar numbers 1 - 49999.

Any numbers which fall in between these are Regular/New Army numbers, which I don't have details of.

Also I do have a copy of the 160th(Wearside)Bde,R.F.A., which includes the original nominal roll.

Sorry I was unable to help you out Gary.

Graham.

[susanhemmings]

Graham,

Please could you advise me;

my grandad John William Church was with RGA - two possibilities

Gnr RGA reg no: 29015 or

Gnr RGA reg no: 209632

(Woolwich) - later was in "labour corps" - was gassed.

From birth certs of his daughter's around 1916 - 1918 I think he must have been away from home around late 1916 - 1917.

Could you look to see if you have anything.

Obliged.

and thanks

Susan

[KONDOA]

Graham Stewart "This would enable it to run in sequence with those numbers already issued."

The numbers do run alongside the original number with minor shifts for men that had died or left the unit etc.

Hawksworth John Thomas Gunner 8 290006

Winter Francis William Act.Corporal 12 290010

Cartwright Harry Gunner 17 290015

Peacock John Robert Gunner 20 290018

Markham John William Gunner 29 290026

Fewster Joseph Daniel Sergeant 30 290027

Bland James Clifford Sergeant 42 290039

Hagestadt Frederick Bombardier 43 290040

Same applies for 124th HB

Roop

[joseph]

And for the 3rd Hull Heavy Battery, 146 Heavy Battery

Gunner Wray, George W 4523 / 294725

Gunner Welburn, John E 4524 / 294726

Gunner Wilson, William 4525 / 294727

Gunner Winter, Percy V K 4526 / 294728

The number changes seem to start Mar 1917 this is from casualty lists in the local papers.

164th(Siege)Bty,R.G.A. Numbered in the 165000 range and predominantly Hull men.

Regards Charles

[Graham Stewart]

Susan,

Unfortunatley your GF has one of those numbers which do not fall into the new TF series of numbers which can be traced to a unit. If you go to my post just before yours you'll find I've listed all of the traceable numbers for the all of the TF Artillery.

Sorry I couldn't have helped you any further.

Graham.

[ckbeans]

Hello Graham - this is a really long shot but from your numbering you may help to solve a mystery for me.

My maternal grandfather was in France from August 1915 and was wounded sometime later. He survived the war and died around 1935 when my mother was still a child.

Little is known about him before the war, but I have his number as 67610, DVR T Blakeman. The national archive can tell me very little, but you may be able to fix something more specific that RFA.

I am new to the forum site but absolutely amazed at the knowledge and generosity of those who are involved.

Here's hoping.

ckbeans

[CSMMo]

Mike,

The new T.F.Artillery renumbering is actually done by Brigade and Ammunition Column, because the Ammo Columns were re-identified as seperate sections and all their personnel were renumbered in 1915.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Graham, can you clarify please? Does this mean that the Brigade Amm. Col. folks would have a different (new) number than the rest of the Brigade members in TF Artillery? Or did they get renumbered twice?

Thanks (again!) for your attention to this matter.

Mike

[Graham Stewart]

Mike,

Here you have ACI 98 of the 14th January 1915, which refers to the renumbering of those men in TF Divisional Ammunition Columns and treating the Column as an independent section. Thats why when new six figure numbers were issued in 1917 they were even given their own six figure number series which again identified them as the DAC.

The next question is did it actually happen? The answer is yes it did, because my Great Grandfather was one of those who were renumbered while still at home, before going overseas

My Great Grandfather 1482 Shoe Smith Moses Francis enlisted at Durham City on 10th September 1914 into the 3rd(Northumbrian)Bde,R.F.A.(T.F.). He was then renumbered iaw ACI 98 of January 1915 as "2712" while still in the UK, and serving with the DAC. In 1917 he was renumbered again 770969 iaw Appendix 183 of ACI 2198("New Series of Regimental Numbers to be Allotted to Soldiers of RHA & RFA(TF)"). The new series of numbers issued to 50th DAC were 770001 - 775000.

His first number only appears on his service papers and not in the Medal Rolls or MIC.

Hope it makes some sense to you.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

ckbeans,

I'm sorry, but I cant help as the number you have is only a five figure number and not a six figure number which were issued to the RFA(TF) in 1917.

I've made a bit of a rod for my own back here by not explaining fully from the beginning the new TF numbering that can be traced. The RFA(TF) numbers that can be traced are 630001 - 975000.

Once again my apologies.

Graham.

[rflory]

Graham wrote:

My Great Grandfather 1482 Shoe Smith Moses Francis enlisted at Durham City on 10th September 1914 into the 3rd(Northumbrian)Bde,R.F.A.(T.F.). He was then renumbered iaw ACI 98 of January 1915 as "2712" while still in the UK, and serving with the DAC. In 1917 he was renumbered again 770969 iaw Appendix 183 of ACI 2198("New Series of Regimental Numbers to be Allotted to Soldiers of RHA & RFA(TF)"). The new series of numbers issued to 50th DAC were 770001 - 775000.

Graham: While everything you wrote in the quote above is true, it may be somewhat misleading to others. While the numbers 770001-775000 were assigned to men in the 50th (Northumbrian) DAC, they were also assigned to men in the 63rd (2nd Northumbian) DAC. This results from the fact that the numbers were assigned to each TF Brigade, most of which formed two brigades that served during the war.

Regards. Dick Flory

[ckbeans]

Hello Graham - this is a really long shot but from your numbering you may help to solve a mystery for me.

My maternal grandfather was in France from August 1915 and was wounded sometime later.  He survived the war and died around 1935 when my mother was still a child.

Little is known about him before the war, but I have his number as 67610, DVR T Blakeman.  The national archive can tell me very little, but you may be able to fix something more specific that RFA.

I am new to the forum site but absolutely amazed at the knowledge and generosity of those who are involved.

Here's hoping.

ckbeans

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the reply - will keep in searching

ckbeans

[Ron Morris]

Hi Graham,

It would be a great help to me, and probably to many other forum members, if you would provide the complete list of the new T.F. Artillery renumbering all for RHA(TF), RFA(TF) & RGA(TF) personnel.

As a collector of Territorial groups, I have found the information provided by the TF Study Group on the 1917 Renumbering of the RE, Infantry and Yeomanry quite invaluable and a list of the T.F. Artillery renumbering would complete the picture.

With service records so often unavailable, the 1917 service number provides one of the few clues to a Territorial soldier's unit and possible service.

Regards,

Ron.

[Graham Stewart]

Dick,

Understand what you're saying regards the DAC,63rd(2nd Northumbrian)Division. As the Division was disolved on the 21st July 1916, and it's artillery and DAC were transferred to the 63rd(Royal Naval Division). No second line Divisional units are mentioned in the ACI, so in effect they were pooled numbers shared between first and second line units that were still in existence in 1917.

This would account for the way the ACI is laid out, e.g.;-

Northumbrian Division

1st Brigade new 1917 numbers 750001 - 755000.

2nd Brigade new 1917 numbers 755001 - 760000.

3rd Brigade new 1917 numbers 760001 - 765000.

4th Brigade new 1917 numbers 765001 - 770000.

DAC new 1917 numbers 770001 - 775000.

At the same time at least there is a starting point for all of these units, which unfortunately we don't have for any others.

Regards,

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Ron,

Can't see why not, but will it be preserved? I've just noticed that an attachment I posted yesterday relating to ACI 98 and the introduction of new regimental numbers for the TF DAC's has disappeared.

In my opinion to save on the old fingers they would be better posted as an attachment or attachments, but where would it go for the benefit of all members?

Graham.

[CSMMo]

Graham, Thanks (again!) for this valuable information. I have printed this one out for future reference. I have another question regarding numbers, but I will start a new thread so as to not hijack this one.

Mike Morrison