PoW conditions

[PhilB]

In the book "A war in words" (Palmer & Wallis) it says that an officer PoW was entitled to 3 times as much space as an OR and a standard issue mattress, a pillow, a blanket, a chair, a stool, a trunk, dishes, glasses, a hand towel and a bucket. He was also allowed the service of an orderly to attend to his needs. He was exempt from all manual work and paid a monthly salary to be reimbursed by his government after the war. He was able to give his word of parole and go outside the camp for walks. The day seems to have been spent socializing, playing sports and learning foreign languages.

The OR was entitled to 5 sq metres of space, a blanket, a sack filled with straw or wood shavings. He could be made to work to pay for his own maintenance costs. Unfortunately the book doesn`t go into the typical conditions of life for ORs. Does anyone have information on this? Phil B

[ian turner]

Phil

Not specifically, but I believe in the case of the POW's from the seige of Kut, the O/R were decimated through harsh treatment and disease, whereas the officer had a cushier time.

Ian

[healdav]

I have a copy of a letter sent to the Prime Minister of Luxembourg by a French pilot who had been interned there.

He complained that whilst British internees were allowed out of the barracks every day and could walk around the city (cautiously in case they were picked up by the Germans), he was obliged to remain in the prison.

The reply was that as officers the British could give their word of honour not to escape. He was merely a sergeant could not therefore give his word of honour.

Amazingly, he seems to have accepted this.

I have read that officer sometimes envied the men who had to work as it passed the time.

[PhilB]

The reply was that as officers the British could give their word of honour not to escape. He was  merely a sergeant could not therefore give his word of honour.

Amazingly, he seems to have accepted this.

I have read that officer sometimes envied the men who had to work as it passed the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is amazing that one class was seen as inherently honourable while the other wasn`t.

I wonder about the work aspect. It`s one thing to have a nice light job, but I suspect that work for the ORs could be something quite different. Phil B

[PhilB]

This article - http://europeanhistory.about.com/gi/dynami.../11/ixhome.html

gives the impression that Ruhleben was like a holiday camp, though! Phil B

[Cliff. Hobson]

I had an Uncle who also was taken prisoner along with his mate Geo. Alletson, both of whom were miners, he did relate to me that when they were captured and in the prison camp a German Officer made them all remove their shirts and all those with the blue coal scars on their backs were sent to work in the German coal mines.

“14th January 1919.- The old Whitwell Cricketer & Footballer George Alletson, 8th Lincolns, son of

Mr & Mrs C. Alletson, has just arrived home from Germany where he has been in captivity since

September 1915. He enlisted at the outbreak of war and saw much fighting at Loos before falling into the hands of the enemy. At that time he was wounded in three places and while suffering excruciating pain

he was nearly strangled by a German, being eventually rescued by a comrade.

He states he was kept alive by parcels received from England. When reaching East Prussia to work in the coal mine the party were booed at by a crowd which consisted largely of women and children who

spat in their faces. He was once compelled to work three shifts at a stretch without any food, his pay was

four & half pence per day. His health finally broke down and the Doctor before whom he was taken

told him that England was on its last legs and that millions had been killed and wounded. When he disbelieved his story the Doctor called him a big English swine and prevented him being sent to a

neutral country. At another camp to where he was removed the guards were all accompanied by dogs

who treated them as though they were criminals.”

[PhilB]

That`s what confuses me, Cliff. Different reports giving vastly different impressions of PoW life for ORs. Perhaps there was a great variation? Phil B

[Cliff. Hobson]

The conditions P.O.W.s endured probably varied due to the calibre of their jailers, I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that exchanges between British Soldiers and Germans in the Front line showed that the Saxons were more amenable than the Prussians.

Regards Cliff.

[christine liava'a]

2 prisoners of war from Fiji, who apparently received quite different treatment.

A Prisoner in Germany

Mr Joe Marrinon

Marrinon fell into the hands of the enemy. For four months he was in a German hospital at Douai. The treatment of the doctors themselves was good, but the neglect of the dressings was terrible. They were never changed less than once in ten days and sometimes as much as thirty days elapsed without attention. A private from New South Wales complained that his wound was “alive” from this cause, to receive the retort that he could catch them for pastime.

After Douai Marrinon was sent to the Westphalia district and had an experience of several prison camps. The food in general was not fit for pigs to eat, and but for the Red Cross many a man would not have existed. No clothing was served out to the British Tommies. The Russians who were employed oftener behind the lines received suits made of paper. They looked like common cloth, and were alright in fine weather, but once wet they were done.

The general treatment of prisoners on the whole was cruel although some of the guards were fair.

On October 10, 1918, Marrinon was exchanged, travelling from the camp to the border wher he was passed by a German doctor, and thence through Holland, travelling from Rotterdam to England.

Fiji Times, 7 August 1920

In Germany

2nd Lieutenant S Howard Ellis, R. F. C., Prisoner of War at Bischofswerda, Saxony

I have letters up to November 26th. I came to this camp on January 7th, and I like it tremendously much. Everything is tremendously comfortable. I have a good bed, plenty to eat, and good company, so there are no complaints. The country round is rather jolly, I fancy; but there has been a foot of snow since I came, so I have not seen much of it. The English officers go for walks several times a week, and, as they have football in winter, even in the snow, and tennis in summer, they keep pretty fit. I can’t walk about yet, and I fancy it will still be a longish time before I am much use; but it is only a matter of time, and, except for the leg, I am as fit as a fiddle. I have good medical attention here, and can get round with a couple of sticks. This is a cheery place to be at. There are hundreds of officers, mostly Russian, French and Belgian, and but thirty English. They are a fine crowd of fellows, and very cheerful, though most of them are prisoners these two months and more. I have just got a card; “Room 98B requests the pleasure of your company to an At Home, Saturday, February 3rd, from 1.30 to 6p.m.Bridge R.S.V.P. Please bring your own chair”. It will be some party- about a dozen tables. We are in rooms- from two to seven in each- there are seven in my room. We have a good stove, and all is O.K. Mails, parcels and everything is coming along well now, and I am particularly merry and bright, so you may banish anxiety about me. It is only a matter of waiting now for me; it is a pretty good old world. The fellows here are awfully good to me; they still regard me as a bit of an invalid, and wait on me hand and foot. I won’t be able to write so many letters now, but after all there is not a great deal to tell. Our life is much the same day after day, and, as far as I am concerned, not even monotonous. I am getting acquainted, though I feel almost an old resident; Stuttgard seems a long way back. I get topping bread from Denmark weekly, and sponge cakes, fruit and things. I am learning Russian; the Russians are awfully decent chaps.

Pages 42, 43 Auckland Grammar School Chronicle Second Term 1917

[truthergw]

In the book "A war in words" (Palmer & Wallis) it says that an officer PoW was entitled to 3 times as much space as an OR and a standard issue mattress, a pillow, a blanket, a chair, a stool, a trunk, dishes, glasses, a hand towel and a bucket. He was also allowed the service of an orderly to attend to his needs. He was exempt from all manual work and paid a monthly salary to be reimbursed by his government after the war. He was able to give his word of parole and go outside the camp for walks. The day seems to have been spent socializing, playing sports and learning foreign languages.

The OR was entitled to 5 sq metres of space, a blanket, a sack filled with straw or wood shavings. He could be made to work to pay for his own maintenance costs. Unfortunately the book doesn`t go into the typical conditions of life for ORs. Does anyone have information on this? Phil B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I am correct in saying that the difference between officers and other ranks was institutionalised by Geneva Convention.

[PhilB]

Can you expand on that, T? Phil B

[truthergw]

Can you expand on that, T? Phil B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll have to start digging for the references, but I am fairly sure I recall a reference to officers having to work and that this was in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

[stevem]

Treatment of POWs in WWI was covered by the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. The 1899 Convention was signed by all of the eventual 1914 - 18 combatants. The 1907 Convention was only endorsed by 25 countries, including Great Britain, Germany and the US, countries who did not sign included Turkey, Serbia and Bulgaria. The 1907 Convention only took effect if all combatants were signatories; however most of the major powers followed the 1907 Convention.

Some of the specifics of the 1907 Convention are as follows:

Article 6 - The State may utilize the labour of prisoners of war according to their rank and aptitude, officers excepted. Prisoners may be authorized to work for the public service, for private persons, or on their own account. Work done for the State is paid for at the rates in force for work of a similar kind done by soldiers of the national army, or, if there are none in force, at a rate according to the work executed. When the work is for other branches of the public service or for private persons the conditions are settled in agreement with the military authorities. The wages of the prisoners shall go towards improving their position, and the balance shall be paid them on their release, after deducting the cost of their maintenance. The tasks shall not be excessive and shall have no connection with the operations

Article 8 - Prisoners of war shall be subject to the laws, regulations, and orders in force in the army of the State in whose power they are. Any act of insubordination justifies the adoption towards them of such measures of severity as may be considered necessary. Escaped prisoners who are retaken before being able to rejoin their own army or before leaving the territory occupied by the army which captured them are liable to disciplinary punishment. Prisoners who, after succeeding in escaping, are again taken prisoners, are not liable to any punishment on account of the previous flight.

Article 10 - Prisoners of war may be set at liberty on parole if the laws of their country allow, and, in such cases, they are bound, on their personal honour, scrupulously to fulfil, both towards their own Government and the Government by whom they were made prisoners, the engagements they have contracted. In such cases their own Government is bound neither to require of nor accept from them any service incompatible with the parole given.

Article 17 - Officers taken prisoners shall receive the same rate of pay as of officers of corresponding rank in the country where they are detained, the amount to be ultimately refunded by their own Government.

Full details of the Conventions can be found at the following website

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

Steve

[truthergw]

I'll have to start digging for the references, but I am fairly sure I recall a reference to officers having to work and that this was in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bad form to reply to my own post but; I googled on it and Article 50, sections blah blah. Prisoners can be required to work subject to conditions, one of which is rank. NCOs can be made to do supervisory work etc. Phew!

[PhilB]

Thank you gents for laying out the official position. Were ORs ever able to give parole and go for walks? Phil B

[John_Hartley]

The day seems to have been spent socializing, playing sports and learning foreign languages.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lt Alan Holt, 17/Manchester, was captured at Arras on 23/4/17. He kept a diary for the first six weeks or so (now at IWM). In it he describes starting to learn Italian. He also spends a lot of time playing "his" violin. I doubt whether he took "his" violin into battle, so musical instruments must have been readily available in the camp.

I suspect they didnt do much in the way of sports. Holt describes the rations, such as they were and I doubt they would have provided much sustenance for exertion.

John

[Doug Johnson]

I have not found any references to ORs being allowed to give parole. A French officer, George Connes, particularly remarks on the fact that he was allowed to give his word and go for walks but the ORs were not. My Grandfather, a private in the London Scottish, was however allowed out of the camp unsupervised to collect firewood. The London Scottish seemed to have had special status at Gustrow so this was probably not the norm.

Space for officers was not just a matter of square metres but of how many were in a room. If I remember rightly, four junior officers shared a room, two senior officers shared and only top ranking officers had a room to themselves. At Gustrow there were four bed rooms used by senior NCOs eg W/O Achibald Kennedy shared a four bed room. There were no officers to speak of at Gustrow.

Musical instruments were not freely available in camps but had to be either purchased or sent in by relatives. Ruhleben was possibly an exception due to its particular circumstances. Gustrow however managed to build up nearly a full orchestra, mainly of Belgians. I have several programmes of concerts by the Gustrow camp orchestra.

Sports were popular in camps but as most ORs worked off camp they had little time. I have photographs of a football match at Gustrow and of the British F C. I also have the programme for a sports day. I suspect that during the latter part of the war sports tailed off as the food supplies shrank. My Grandfather arrived home weighing 6 stone despite having received regular food parcels throughout his four years in captivity, all of which was spent at one camp.

Conditions for prisoners have been discussed on other threads on this forum and in all the personal reports that I have read the experiences vary enormously. My Grandfathers experience was generally not bad though it did vary considerably. It was very bad in 1914 when the camp was not established and accommodation consisted of tents with straw on the bare earth to sleep on. The Commandant, a General was particularly bad at the time, not necessarily evil but woefully indifferent. After huts were built from say mid Jan 1915 conditions improved. The commandant was also replaced by a Colonel who was much fairer man. Most of the time my Grandfather worked in the camp post office which was good work but was also sent to work on a farm which was hard graft. Depending on the farmer, some prisoners worked from dawn to dusk six days a week. In the summer dawn comes early and dusk comes late! (farmers paid the military a daily rate for prisoners, 25pf, and some abused this by working them all day)

As a matter of interest, I had believed that Russian prisoners did not recieve parcels. This appears not to be the case and that they did receive parcels up to at least 1917. This may have changed after the revolution which is why thousands starved to death near the end of the war.

Doug

[matteyre]

I had an Uncle who also was taken prisoner along with his mate Geo. Alletson, both of whom were miners, he did relate to me that when they were captured and in the prison camp a German Officer made them all remove their shirts and all those with the blue coal scars on their backs were sent to work in the German coal mines.

“14th January 1919.- The old Whitwell Cricketer & Footballer George Alletson, 8th Lincolns, son of

Mr & Mrs C. Alletson, has just arrived home from Germany where he has been in captivity since

September 1915. He enlisted at the outbreak of war and saw much fighting at Loos before falling into the hands of the enemy. At that time he was wounded in three places and while suffering excruciating pain

he was nearly strangled by a German, being eventually rescued by a comrade.

He states he was kept alive by parcels received from England. When reaching East Prussia to work in the coal mine the party were booed at by a crowd which consisted largely of women and children who

spat in their faces. He was once compelled to work three shifts at a stretch without any food, his pay was

four & half pence per day. His health finally broke down and the Doctor before whom he was taken

told him that England was on its last legs and that millions had been killed and wounded. When he disbelieved his story the Doctor called him a big English swine and prevented him being sent to a

neutral country. At another camp to where he was removed the guards were all accompanied by dogs

who treated them as though they were criminals.”

My grandfather Corporal William Needham 8th Lincolns from Chesterfield was posted missing at Loos on the 26th of Sept 1915, and was a prisoner for the rest of the war. He was in a camp with many russians and learnt the language, but came back less than 7 stone, having been 13 stone beforehand. My grandmother refused to speak or be in a room with Germans because of his treatment