From a Soldier to a Sailor

[Will O'Brien]

Been doing a bit of research on a chap who started off his Great War career with the Bedfordshire Regiment, joining in circa December 1915. He transferred to the 63rd Machine Gun Battalion of the Royal Naval Division with whom he was serving when he died in April 1918. I was wondering if this would have been a genuine transfer between the two services or do you think he actually transferred to the Machine Gun Corps & was attached to the RND?. CWGC also have his rank listed as Private rather than Seaman which just confuses me more.

Comments & thoughts on this matter would be appreciated.

Will

[michaeldr]

Will,

As well as the Naval Battalions (Howe, Anson, Hood, Nelson, Drake, Collingwood, Benbow and Hawke) and the Royal Marine Battalions (Chatham, Deal, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and later the 1st and 2nd RMLI) the following also served in The Royal Naval Division at one time or another

7th Royal Fusiliers

4th Bedfords

1st HAC

10th Royal Dublin Fusiliers

1/28th London (Artists Rifles)

2nd Royal Irish Rifles

1/4th Kings Shropshire Light Infantry

14th Worcesters (Pioneers)

4th Field Brigade RFA

247th, 248th, 249th Field Companies RE

RAMC

Only the Naval Battalions used their naval ranks

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Staffsyeoman]

The 63rd Division had three MG Coys: 188, 189 and 190. 188 & 189 were originally formed in Jul 16 (189 on 16th) of ex-RM/RN personnel. 190 was formed 'by' September 16 in the UK, we believe from Army personnel.

However, the original 188 & 189 Coys were broken up around Jun 1917, and replaced by 223 and 224 Coys MGC, who were redesignated 188 & 189. Just confuse things STILL further another 223 Coy was formed at the Machine Gun School at Camiers in Aug 17 and dispatched to the 63rd Division in September.

63rd Battalion MGC was formed w.e.f. 1 Mar 18, with 188, 189, 190 and 223 Coys as its constituents (but strangely enough, there is a 63 Bn war diary from Jan 18 on).

So in short, whilst serving with the Royal Naval Division, he need never have been a sailor and it's unlikely he ever was.

[Will O'Brien]

Michael/Phil

Many thanks for all the info - it's invaluable to me.

Micheal - This guy served with the 4th Beds so I see it's probable he already had served attached to the RND before he joined the 63rd MG Batt.

Phil They don't half try to make it confusing don't they. - however its provided me with the probable answer to the query. Everything points to him never being a sailor.

Many thanks again Will

[Staffsyeoman]

Will;

No problem - but the story of the formation, disbanding, rebanding (I made that term up!) of the Companies needs a bit more digging. It's a touch 'micro' for us researching the Corps history, but will go back and examine it. Possible War Office/Admiralty spat? As Jacques Cousteau used to say: "Ooo can telllll"

His MIC will prove conclusively, and sight unseen I bet it says

1234 Bedford R

56789 MG Corps

(Numbers are space fillers, not illustrations!)

[michaeldr]

Will,

When the RND arrived in France in May 1916 it was below strength

The original plan was to bring it up to 12 battalions by drawing on reserves at the depot, however this plan was abandoned due to a shortage of reserves for the existing battalions

Instead it was brought up to infantry strength by adding an Army brigade, the 190th

Which was made up of

1st HAC

4th Bedfords

7th Royal Fusiliers

10th R. Dublin Fusiliers

With the arrival of this army brigade the division's title also changed

From being The Royal Naval Division

it became the 63rd (RN) Division

Confirming what Phil said above, "The machine-gun (Vickers) companies were formed at once by withdrawing from the battalions the existing machine-gun sections." This from Douglas Jerrold's 'The Royal Naval Division' (another highly recommended read)

Thus when the 4th Bedfords were added to the RND, their MG Section would have become part of the 190th Brigade Company (before going on to the 63rd Battalion MGC in 1918 as described by Phil above)

Hope this helps

Michael D.R.

[michaeldr]

63rd Battalion MGC was formed w.e.f. 1 Mar 18, with 188, 189, 190 and 223 Coys as its constituents (but strangely enough, there is a 63 Bn war diary from Jan 18 on).

Phil,

Douglas Jerrold in his 'The Royal Naval Division' says that in Sept 1917 Maj-Gen Lawrie decided upon a Divisional grouping of the machine-gun companies

"the organization subsequently adopted throughout the army was thus anticipated by some months." This could account for a diary commencing earlier than the army's generally recognised starting date of March 1918

Jerrold also explains that the original RNVR machine-gun companies (188th & 189th) were disbanded for lack of reinforcements and there places were taken by the 223rd & 224th Companies of the Machine Gun Corps.

What I could not work out from Jerrold was where the fourth company had come from

Your explanation of two companies, both numbered 223rd, sounds very strange but nevertheless explains this; many thanks

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Will O'Brien]

Michael/Phil

Thanks for the extra info

Phil - I never thought about checking the MIC - I must bite the bullet & make a trip down to the PRO (The thought scares the hell out me). This goes on my new official to do list as Number 1.

Michael - Is the Douglas Jerrold book readily available? (don't think i've noticed it whilst browsing my local bookshops)

Will

[michaeldr]

Will,

Douglas Jerrold's book "The Royal Naval Division" is probably available from either Ray Westlake Military Books or The Naval & Military Press Ltd, both of whom can be contacted via the 'Links' on this forum's mother site, The Long, Long Trail

Best of luck with your researches

Michael D.R.