SDGW Look up please

[KateJ]

Would some kind person look up these 2 men for me

Name: KEMP

Initials: G P

Nationality:United Kingdom

Rank: Gunner

Regiment: Royal Garrison Artillery

Unit Text: 186th Siege Bty.

Date of Death:26/09/1917

Service No:60984

Name: KEMP

Initials: H J

Nationality:United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: British South African Police

Date of Death:28/05/1916

Service No:164

Thanks very much

Kate

[Arthur]

Name: KEMP

Initials: G P

Nationality:United Kingdom

Rank: Gunner

Regiment: Royal Garrison Artillery

Unit Text: 186th Siege Bty.

Date of Death:26/09/1917

Service No:60984

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kate,

Gordon Parnall Kemp.

Born Tottenham, Middlesex

Enlisted Great Yarmouth

Killed in Action, France & Flanders.

British South African Police are not recorded in SDGW!

Regards Arthur

[KateJ]

Thanks Arthur.

I wasn't sure about the 2nd one but as he's on CWGC's database I thought there might be a chance he was on SDGW.

Thanks again

Kate

[Ludovica]

This one isn't findable on CWGC Is he in "Soldiers Died..."?

Pte John Manktelow (that's the "right" spelling anyway, but its not "fixed" as you'll see...

ROLL OF HONOUR - COURIER DECEMBER 15TH

LAMBERHURST - PTE. J MANCKELLOW

PRIVATE JOHN MANCKELLOW, THE BROTHER OF THE LAST NAMED, WHO IS AGED 20, HAS BEEN SEVERELY WOUNDED, AND IS NOW IN HOSPITAL IN WALES. THE GREATEST SYMPATHY IS FELT IN LAMBERHURST WITH HIS WIDOWED MOTHER.

ROLL OF HONOUR - COURIER NOVEMBER 22ND 1918

LAMBERURST - PTE. J MANCKELLOW

PRIVATE J. MANCKELLOW, YOUNGEST SON OF MRS MANCKELLOW, WAS KILLED IN ACTION ON SEPTEMBER 27TH. HE WAS ASSISTING WITH A STRETCHER WHEN A SHELL BURST BENEATH IT, KILLING HIM AND HIS WOUNDED COMRADE, WHILE THE OTHER BEARER ESCAPED. DECEASED HAD BEEN TWICE PREVIOUSLY WOUNDED. THE GREATEST SYMPATHY IS FELT IN THE VILLAGE WITH HIS WIDOWED MOTHER, WHO IS A SEPTUAGENARIAN, AND HAS NOW LOST THREE SONS IN THE WAR.

It seems a pity I can't find John on the CWGC site. This family gave SO much

These are his brothers

ROLL OF HONOUR - COURIER SEPTEMBER 21 1917

LAMBERHURST - PTE F. MANCKTELLOW.

PRIVATE FREDERICK MANCKTELLOW OF THE IRISH RIFLES, AGED 33, HAS BEEN KILLED IN ACTION IN FRANCE. HE IS THE SECOND SON KILLED IN FRANCE OF MRS. MANCKELLOW, WHO IS A WIDOW, AND SHE HAS HAD ANOTHER SON TWICE WOUN DED, WHO IS STILL IN THE FIGHTING LINE IN FRANCE. THE GREATEST SYMPATHY IS FELT WITH HER AS WELL AS THE WIFE AND TWO CHILDREN OF THE DECEASED, WHO HAD BEEN IN FRANCE A YEAR, AND SEEN A GOOD DEAL OF FIGHTING. ON SUNDAY EVENING AT THE PARISH CHU RCH THE "DEAD MARCH" WAS PLAYED IN MEMORY OF THE DECEASED.

SERVICE HISTORY: RIFLEMAN FOR THE 13TH BATTALION - ROYAL IRISH RIFLES REGIMENTAL NO: 43688

Name: MANKTELOW, FREDERICK

Initials: F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Rifleman

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 13th Bn.

Age: 33

Date of Death: 16/08/1917

Service No: 43688

Additional information: Son of William and Ann Manktelow, of Riverside House, Lamberhurst; husband of Matilda Scott Manktelow, of 113, Queen's Rd., Tunbridge Wells, Kent.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 138 to 140 and 162 to 162A and 163A

Cemetery: TYNE COT MEMORIAL

Name: MANKTELOW, ALBERT Initials: A Nationality: Australian Rank: Private Regiment: Australian Infantry, A.I.F Unit Text: 56th Bn. Age: 37 Date of Death: 01/11/1916 Service No: 1702 Additional information: Son of William and Ann Manktelow. Born at Lamberhurst, Kent, England. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Cemetery: VILLERS-BRETONNEUX MEMORIAL

Albert Manktelow b. 1879, Lamberhurst, Kent, July 6, 1879, Lamberhurst, Kent, m. July 27, 1901, in Lamberhurst, Kent, Isobella Florence Castle. Albert died Nov 1, 1916, Somme, France. Census 1881 (1) living with family. Census 1891 (11) death notice is for Private Albert Manktelow, 56th Bn, Australian Infantry, AIF??? In Memory of ALBERT MANKTELOW Private 1702 56th Bn., Australian Infantry, A.I.F who died on Wednesday, 1st November 1916. Age 37. Additional Information: Son of William and Ann Manktelow. Born at Lamberhurst, Kent, England

And his nephews

Name: MAITLAND Initials: W T Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: The Buffs (East Kent Regiment) Unit Text: 6th Bn. Age: 26 Date of Death: 03/07/1916 Service No: G/8944 Additional information: Son of Mrs. Maitland, of Blue Coat Lane, Goudhurst, Kent. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: VI. B. 7. Cemetery: OVILLERS MILITARY CEMETERY

William Thomas John Eagles Maitland b. 1890, Lamberhurst, Kent, April 16, 1890, Lamberhurst, Kent, d. July 3, 1916, France. THE ROLL OF HONOUR - COURIER SEPTEMBER 29TH 1916

GOUDHURST - PTE. MAITLAND KILLED

MR AND MRS MAITLAND OF BLUE COAT LANE, HAVE BEEN OFFICIALLY INFORMED THAT THEIR ELDEST SON, PRIVATE WILLIAM THOMAS JOHN MAITLAND, AGED 26 (THE BUFFS, EAST KENT), WAS KILLED IN ACTION ON THE 3RD OF JULY LAST. HE HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN REPORTED AS WOUNDED. PRIVATE MAITLAND WAS EDUCATED AT GOUDHURST VILLAGE SCHOOL AND THEN WENT ON TO MR B.H. WICKHAM'S FARM AT FINCHCOCKS, WHERE HE WAS EMPLOYED FOR 13 YEARS AND WAS LIKED BY EVERYBODY. HE WAS CALLED UP ON THE 10TH OF FEBRUARY LAST, AND AFTER THREE MONTHS TRAINING AT DOVER SAILED TO FRANCE ON THE 18TH OF MAY. HE WROTE REGULARLY TWICE A WEEK TO HIS PARENTS, AND THEN ALL AT ONCE HIS LETTERS CEASED. HIS FRIENDS AT HOME WERE FOR A LONG TIME IN A STATE OF SUSPENSE, NOT KNOWING WHETHER HE WAS ALIVE OR DEAD, UNTIL THEY RECEIVED A FORMAL NOTICE OF HIS DEATH FROM THE HOUNDSLOW INFANTRY RECORD OFFICE. MR THOMAS JOHN MAITLAND AND HIS WIFE ARE VERY ANXIOUS TO THANK MR DRUCE AND OTHER FRIENDS WHO HAVE EXERTED THEMSELVES TO TRY TO GET INFORMATION AS TO THE FACTS OF THIS PAINFUL CASE.

Name: MAITLAND, CHARLES HENRY Initials: C H Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: North Staffordshire Regiment Unit Text: 4th Bn. Age: 19 Date of Death: 20/10/1918 Service No: 42609 Additional information: Son of Thomas John and Sarah Ann Maitland, of Goudhurst, Kent. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: VI. A. 30. Cemetery: TERLINCTHUN BRITISH CEMETERY, WIMILLE

(2) Charles Henry Maitland b. 1899, Lamberhurst, Kent, d. Oct 20, 1918, France. Notes for CHARLES HENRY MAITLAND: ROLL OF HONOUR - COURIER NOVEMBER 1ST 1918 GOUDHUST - PTE. MAITLAND

MR. THOMAS JOHN MAITLAND, OF BLUE COAT LAND, GOUDHURST, HAS RECEIVED NOTICE OF THE DEATH OF HIS SECOND SON, CHARLES HENRY MAITLAND, IN FRANCE, ON THE 20TH AT THE AGE OF 19. AFTER PASSING CREDITABLY THROUGH THE VILLAGE SCHOOL, THE LAD WAS EMPLOYED AS UNDER-GARDENER FIRST AT BEDGEBURY AND THEN AT BALLARDS COURT. WHEN HE ATTAINED THE AGE OF 18 HE JOINED UP, AND AT EASTER OF THE PRESENT YEAR HE CROSS OVER TO FRANCE, AND ON THE 30TH OF SEPTEMBER WAS WOUNDED IN THE THIGH. IT WAS FOUND NECESSARY TO AMPUTATE THE RIGHT LEG, AND DEATH OCCURRED ON THE 20TH OF OCTOBER. THE CHAPLAIN, IN A SYMPATHETIC LETTER TO THE MOTHER, SPOKE OF THE DECEASED AS A "DEAR, GOOD, BRAVE LAD", AND THE MATRON OF THE SOUTH AUSTRALIAN GENERAL HOSPITAL, FRANCE, IN A KIND LETTER TO THE MOTHER ASSURED HER THAT EVERYTHING POSSIBLE WOULD BE DONE FOR HER BOY, AND ASKED HER TO PLEASE FEEL THAT THE LADDIE WAS AMONGST FRIENDS, WHO WOULD HELP HIM IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE. AN ELDER BROTHER OF THE DECEASED WAS KILLED IN ACTION IN FRANCE IN JULY 1916.

Name: MANKTELOW, GEORGE THOMAS Initials: G T Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Corporal Regiment: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) Unit Text: 7th Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 26/11/1916 Service No: 2132 Awards: MM Additional information: Native of Lamberhurst, Kent. Son of Thomas and the late Anna Manktelow, of 20, Cambridge Rd., Bexhill-on-Sea, Sussex. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. E. 31. Cemetery: CONTAY BRITISH CEMETERY, CONTAY

MANCKTELOW, HORACE Initials: H Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Rifleman Regiment: King's Royal Rifle Corps Secondary Regiment: London Regt (Queen's Westminster Rifles) Secondary Unit Text: posted to 2nd/16th Bn. Age: 19 Date of Death: 28/09/1918 Service No: R/41927 Additional information: Son of Alfred and Isabella Mancktelow, of 4, St. Leonard's Avenue, Poplar, London. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. B. 39. Cemetery: MESSINES RIDGE BRITISH CEMETERY Son of Albert and Isobella (not Alfred), also died in the Great War

Age discrepancy.. lied about age on entry to military service? age according to death record indicates birth before 28-9-1899 Parents married in 1901

[Arthur]

Hi,

Sorry to have to say that your man was not found on SDGW. I tried all of the variations of the spelling of the name for him.

There are 10 MANKTELOW’s found in SDGW:

01: Arthur William James, Born Rustall Enlisted & Residence Tunbridge.

02: Bruce, Born Borstal, Kent, Enlisted Chatham.

03: Charles, Enlisted Wadhurst, Sussex.

04: Ernest George, Born Rochester Enlisted Chatham, Residence Rochester.

05: Frederick, Lambhurt?,Kent, Enlisted Woolwich.

06: George Thomas, Born Lamberhurst, Tunbridge Wells, Enlisted Tunbridge Wells,

07: James, Born Wadhurst, Sussex, Enlisted Chichester.

08: Michael George, Born Pimlico, Enlisted Whitehall, Middlesex, Residence Pimlico, Middlesex.

09: Thomas William, Born Islington, Enlisted London, Residence Islington.

10: William Wallace, Enlisted Chelmsford, Residence Sevenoaks, Kent.

Only 1 MANKTELOW found in ODGW:

01: Walter Stanley, 2/LT [TP] 2nd Bn. East Lancashire Regt.

There were 5 MANCKTELOW’s found in SDGW. None in ODGW:

01: Charles Walter, Born Deptford, Kent, Enlisted Deptford, Kent.

02: Clifford, Woodford, Essex, Enlisted Kettering, Northants, Residence Oundle, Northants.

03: Herbert, Born Poplar, London, Enlisted Stratford, Essex, Residence Poplar, London.

04: Horace, Born Poplar, London, Enlisted Stratford, Essex, Residence Poplar, London.

05: William Harry, Born Ramsgate, Kent, Enlisted Clapham Junction, Residence Tooting.

There were 6 MANKELOW’s found in SDGW. None in ODGW:

01: Albert George, Born Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Enlisted Southampton, Residence Chalfont St. Giles, Bucks.

02: Charles, Enlisted Wadhurst, Sussex.

03: George, Born Tonbridge, Kent, Enlisted Tonbridge, Kent.

04: George Arthur, Born Christchurch, Eastbourne, Enlisted Eastbourne.

05: Herbert Charles, Born Hadlow, Tonbridge, Kent, Enlisted Hadlow, Tonbridge, Kent.

06: Walter, Born St, Marks, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Enlisted Tunbridge Wells, Kent,

Regards

Arthur

[Ludovica]

Hi,

    Sorry to have to say that your man was not found on SDGW. I tried all of the variations of the spelling of the name for him.

    There are 10 MANKTELOW’s found in SDGW:

01: Arthur William James, Born Rustall Enlisted & Residence Tunbridge.

02: Bruce, Born Borstal, Kent, Enlisted Chatham.

03: Charles, Enlisted Wadhurst, Sussex.

04: Ernest George, Born Rochester Enlisted Chatham,  Residence Rochester.

05: Frederick, Lambhurt?,Kent,  Enlisted Woolwich.

06: George Thomas, Born Lamberhurst, Tunbridge Wells, Enlisted Tunbridge Wells,

07: James, Born Wadhurst, Sussex, Enlisted Chichester.

08: Michael George, Born Pimlico, Enlisted Whitehall, Middlesex, Residence Pimlico, Middlesex.

09: Thomas William, Born Islington, Enlisted London, Residence Islington.

10: William Wallace, Enlisted Chelmsford, Residence Sevenoaks, Kent.

Only 1 MANKTELOW found in ODGW:

01: Walter Stanley, 2/LT [TP] 2nd Bn. East Lancashire Regt.

There were 5 MANCKTELOW’s found in SDGW. None in ODGW:

01: Charles Walter, Born Deptford, Kent,  Enlisted Deptford, Kent.

02: Clifford, Woodford, Essex,  Enlisted Kettering, Northants, Residence Oundle, Northants.

03: Herbert, Born Poplar, London, Enlisted Stratford, Essex, Residence Poplar, London.

04: Horace, Born Poplar, London, Enlisted Stratford, Essex, Residence Poplar, London.

05: William Harry, Born Ramsgate, Kent, Enlisted Clapham Junction, Residence Tooting.

There were 6 MANKELOW’s found in SDGW. None in ODGW:

01: Albert George, Born Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Enlisted Southampton, Residence Chalfont St. Giles, Bucks.

02: Charles, Enlisted Wadhurst, Sussex.

03: George, Born Tonbridge, Kent, Enlisted Tonbridge, Kent.

04: George Arthur, Born Christchurch, Eastbourne, Enlisted Eastbourne.

05: Herbert Charles, Born Hadlow, Tonbridge, Kent, Enlisted Hadlow, Tonbridge, Kent.

06: Walter, Born St, Marks, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, Enlisted Tunbridge Wells, Kent,

Regards

Arthur

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats really good of you Arthur. This list is going to be incredibly useful (Pretty nearly all of those are known to be related in some way to a common ancestor). It's a great shame about poor John being "missing" though, and quite strange. One of his nephews died on the following day.. I wonder if someone thought they were the same person, and failed to copy up both records? Pity poor Ann Manktelow, losing three sons and four grandsons (that I know of so far ) and more were to follow in WW2 of course

[Ludovica]

I am still looking for the aforesaid John  MANCKELLOW  (I used Man*low as a search operator as the name is subject to a phenomenal number of variant spellings) and wrote to the CWGC for help.. They dont seem to care, he isnt in their database, despite being KIA and twice previously wounded. They want me to provide service and regiment details (which of course I dont have, as he isnt in their database.  I don't know how to proceed.. 
John was born in Lamberhurst in 1891
just a reminder.. 
 

ROLL OF HONOUR - Kent and Sussex Courier DECEMBER 15TH 1916 LAMBERHURST - PTE. J MANCKELLOW

PRIVATE JOHN MANCKELLOW, THE BROTHER OF THE LAST NAMED, WHO IS AGED 20, HAS BEEN SEVERELY WOUNDED, AND IS NOW IN HOSPITAL IN WALES. THE GREATEST SYMPATHY IS FELT IN LAMBERHURST WITH HIS WIDOWED MOTHER.
 

ROLL OF HONOUR - COURIER NOVEMBER 22ND 1918 LAMBERURST - PTE. J MANCKELLOW

PRIVATE J. MANCKELLOW, YOUNGEST SON OF MRS MANCKELLOW, WAS KILLED IN ACTION ON SEPTEMBER 27TH. HE WAS ASSISTING WITH A STRETCHER WHEN A SHELL BURST BENEATH IT, KILLING HIM AND HIS WOUNDED COMRADE, WHILE THE OTHER BEARER ESCAPED. DECEASED HAD BEEN TWICE PREVIOUSLY WOUNDED. THE GREATEST SYMPATHY IS FELT IN THE VILLAGE WITH HIS WIDOWED MOTHER, WHO IS A SEPTUAGENARIAN, AND HAS NOW LOST THREE SONS IN THE WAR.

[Mark1959]

Ludovica

Therse seems to be an issue with the newspaper reports.

James brother of Horace, Alfred, John, William, Thomas etc. was KIA 25/9/1915 at the Battle of Loos and his name is on the Loos Memorial. 

There is a CWGC record for him here

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/735641/manktelow,-james/

The SDGW record show him born in Wadhurst. 

The other report is, I believe, for John Manktelow. This man resided, according to a record I found, in Wadhurst just up the road from Lamberhurst. He is I suspect is 3513 later 315511 16th Royal Sussex. This man is definitely a John. Discharged due to his wounds in 1919. So probably the brother of A and F on the Lamberhurst memorial. 

Some more work to sort out the confusion for certain. There is even another J Manktelow in the Sussex Regt that needs to be identified

edit - other J is in fact Bert so irrelevant. 

Another edit - so complicated as there are a James and John who were brothers in Wadhurst. . So a lot to prove anything

Edited 23 January , 2018 by Mark1959

[PRC]

Mark beat me to it but I'll still post in case its of any value.

 

Hopefully starting with the stuff you already know, so you’ll be able to spot when I go off on a tangent J

 

The birth of a John Manktelow was registered with the Civil Authorities in the District of Ticehurst in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1891.

 

(My thinking – so he started off with no middle names, so any candidates identified with middle names or with John as a middle name should be treated with caution. If he gained additional names then they would probably be “family” ones )

 

On the 1901 Census of England and Wales the Census taker almost certainly seems to have recorded the surname as Manktelow. The family were living in part of the Mill House, Mill Lane, Lamberhurst, Kent. The address is recorded as being in the Ticehurst Civil Registration District.

 

The 1911 Census of England and Wales was the first intended to be completed by the householder – in this case the 61 year old widow Ann. Again the surname recorded against all four members of the household looks to be “Manktelow” and the same applies to Anns’ signature. BTW Ann states her marriage produced 14 children of which 11 were then still alive. The 19 year old John was working as a Farm Labourer.

 

(Thinking – no family names identified for John so far.)

 

A check of emigration records show no likely match for John, so for now I put on hold looking for him in Dominion forces or the US Army – although given the date that last one shouldn’t be discounted. But if he went aboard as crew or via Europe then he wouldn't show up.

 

Giving the information available (“HE WAS ASSISTING WITH A STRETCHER WHEN A SHELL BURST BENEATH IT, KILLING HIM AND HIS WOUNDED COMRADE”), the assumption has to be that John was serving in a Theatre of War – to be wounded twice and then killed as well, all in training accidents in the UK, kind of beggars belief. Nor do those fatal injuries sound like a man dealing with the IRA in Ireland. So if he served in a Theatre of War he ought to have a Medal Index Card.

 

Moving on to the Records Catalogue at the National Archive, there are at least three potential MiCs.

 

Private 266221 John Manktelow, Middlesex Regiment, is held under reference WO 372/13/101647 

He had previously had service number 4062 in the same Regiment.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3915316

 

Private 79507 John Manktelow, Labour Corps, is held under reference WO 372/13/101645

He had previously been 49721 The Queens Regiment.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3915314

 

Private 315511 John Manktelow, Royal Sussex Regiment is held under reference WO 372/13/101646

He had previously been SD/3515 Royal Sussex Regiment.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3915315

 

There are no John’s with a middle name and no J’s.

 

There was also a Private GSSR/850 James Manktelow, Royal Sussex Regiment whose MiC is under WO 372/13/101644

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3915313

 

There is no obvious Civil Probate or Soldiers Will for a John Manktelow anytime between 1915-1920.

 

Using Geoff's Search Engine I checked all Casualties from the UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa with a surname beginning "M" who died on the 27/09/1918 and couldn't see any likely matches for a possible mis-spelling of that surname.

 

So my next step was to ask how confident you were that the article was correct, but like I said - Mark has beaten me to it,

 

regards,

Peter

[Mark1959]

Peter. It is complicated. Pretty sure no John died. Which person in the censi is which soldier remains open. The Effects for James on the Loos memorial went to a large number of relations. So should be able to work that out. But brain has turned to mush.

Edited 23 January , 2018 by Mark1959

[Mark1959]

The James that died at Loos was definitely the James born c1873. Father William. Mother Charity. The brothers, sisters and other relative on the Effects Register proves that. Family lived in Wadhurst. 

[Phil Evans]

According to the SWB Roll, John Manktelow, 315511 RSR, was 28 years old when discharged in September 1919 due to wounds, corroborating that he was born in 1891. I can't see any matching deaths in England & Wales, or Scotland in the following five years. (I have had cases of men from the South dying of wounds in Scottish hospitals)

There is a death registered in Sept Qu. 1959, Hastings RD for a John Manktelow, age 68.The nearest other births for a John Manktelow appear to be 1887 in Cranbrook RD and 1895 in Hastings RD (John Sydney), so little chance of getting him muddled up.

Did he therefore survive?

I don't have access to 1939 Register, but it might be worth having a look for him there.

 

Phil

[Mark1959]

I think it is revealing that A and F Manktelow appear on the Lamberhurst Memorial Hall plaque but there is no J.  Nor does he  appear on the stone memorial. CWGC have no record. I have seen the 1918 newspaper report but my conclusion is it must be erroneous. The odd thing is it is nearly 2 months after his supposed death. Very odd indeed. The only other possibility is he served under an alias.

[Ludovica]

He is certainly this man

Births Sep 1891

Manktelow John Ticehurst Dustrict  2b 113
He was the 14th child of William and Ann (nee Eagles) The two brothers who were killed were Albert and Frederick. The family lived in Lamberhurst
1911 census 

Name:John Manktelow
Age in 1911: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Lamberhurst, Kent
Civil Parish: Lamberhurst

Street address: High Street Mill Lane Lamberhurst Kent
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Farm Labourer
Registration district: Ticehurst
Registration District Number: 73
Sub-registration district: Wadhurst
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 22
Piece: 4918
Household Members:
Name Ann Manktelow Age 61
Walter Manktelow 30
Frederick Manktelow 26
John Manktelow 19

 I have an extensive family tree and there is no consistency of spelling even within the same family groups-- I use Manktelow as that is the most common and also the one on the Birth Registration and 1911 census. As you can see Lamberhurst is a part of the Wadhurst sub-district of the Ticehurst Register district.  I fully accept that the Courier and the actual family in general has a very flexible attitude to spelling,  and his age is wrong .. though an 8 can look like a 0 in old photocopies
This is a real mystery.. the amount of detail about the incident and the local reaction to the man's death and details about the mother and her losses seem to go beyond what you could write off as lazy Friday afternoon journalism. I am confident that the other John Manktelows (eg the one who died in 1959) and another were different people entirely. 
The mother died in 1922 .. according to the Courier she had lost 3 sons--- and from my research  she had also lost 5 grandsons.  I have no explanation for why the CWGC has no record of this guy

 I am incredibly grateful to Forum members who have taken an interest. I just hope I can get this sorted out

Edited 24 January , 2018 by Ludovica
added MIC image

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Ludovica said:

  I fully accept that the Courier and the actual family in general has a very flexible attitude to spelling,  and his age is wrong .. though an 8 can look like a 0 in old photocopies
This is a real mystery.. the amount of detail about the incident and the local reaction to the man's death and details about the mother and her losses seem to go beyond what you could write off as lazy Friday afternoon journalism. I am confident that the other John Manktelows (eg the one who died in 1959) and another were different people entirely. 
The mother died in 1922 .. according to the Courier she had lost 3 sons--- and from my research  she had also lost 5 grandsons.  I have no explanation for why the CWGC has no record of this guy

 

There’s still too many things that don’t tie up for my liking , but they could be red herrings caused by “lazy journalism \ sloppy sub-editing \ incompetent type setting”. In my experience most of these local news reports were written by freelancers,  some of whom seem keener to see their words in print than worry about the veracity of them and so could be quite formulaic. So we could have a “reports of my death” Mark Twain situation here. Which isn’t to say that the bit about a shell exploding beneath the stretcher isn’t true, but just imagine if you were the other bearer who did a bunk – what would your response be on being asked why you didn’t stop to check if you could help the other two. Saying they were dead already gets you out of a hole and will probably turn out to be correct anyway. And if either side found John he might not be in any state to be coherent about who he was. I did check out the International Red Cross site, but couldn’t spot any possibles for German PoW’s. However my own experience is that the German Army prisoner administration was starting to break down by this point, (September 1918) and so I would be more surprised if I found something for a prisoner taken in the last four months of the war than if I didn’t. And of course if the information came via a private letter about his death rather than officially, he may at best have simply been recorded as wounded – if he returned to his unit a bit miffed about being left for death but otherwise relatively ok then he may never have made it as far as the official statistics.

 

Just to mix things up a bit, a check of FMP when I was in the library earlier today brought up the few remaining service records for a John Manktelow, born Lamberhurst. Initially service number 511 in the 11^th (South Down) Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment, then the 14^th Battalion from the 27^th August 1915. He was then transferred to the 98^th Training Reserves on the 1^st September 1916.

 

He would then become 49721, 25^th Labour Company Royal West Surreys from the 12^th March 1917 and then 79507, 133^rd Labour Company, 14^th May 1917. On the 16^th July 1918 he was posted to 764 A.E. Company and then 168 Prisoner of War Company on the 8^th September 1918. He was demobilized on the 18^th February 1919.

 

Prior to his attestation at Eastbourne on the 7^th September 1914 he worked as a Labourer, had no previous military experience and was unmarried.

 

So far so good as far as the census information is concerned.

 

But the fly in the ointment is that he gives his age as 31 years and 149 days. Now he could have lied about his age but given he was volunteering within weeks of the war commencing and would have been at least 22 if it’s the same man, that doesn’t really make any sense. There are none of the pages that list next of kin or when, where he might have seen overseas service and if he was a casualty at any point.

 

There is then a faded slip in the papers giving his date of death as the 16^th March 1933. His last regiment was The Queens, he was Private 49721, and I think the full name is given as Charles John Manktelow. (see attachment)

 

However there is also a letter dated 15^th March 1933, allegedly written by the man himself asking for a copy of his discharge papers. He was living then in Eastbourne.

 

The death of a Charles J Manktelow, aged 59, was recorded in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1933 in the Eastbourne District of Sussex. That would have made his date of birth circa 1874, which perhaps explains the reason for his age on his attestation papers – he made himself 10 years younger in order to serve with a fighting battalion. There is a Charles John Manktelow born in the Ticehurst District in Q2 1873, but no likely match in 1884 +/- 2 years.

 

So that appears to be a total bust, other than to eliminate one of the MiC candidates.

 

Going back to look for a John Manktelow, I also checked the British Newspaper Archive to see if there was anything more but drew a blank

 

Nor was there an obvious match in the Official Casualty list in the Times, or in the War Office Weekly Casualty List, even just looking for any of the MiC service numbers rather than a name or place.

 

Checking out the 1939 National Register for a John Manktelow born 1891 I got two potential matches – both Walter J’s, one of whom was in the Tunbridge Wells District, (the other was in London). Seems like the John being looked for was not alive in the UK at that point. (Edit - FMP also had Service Records  for a Walter J Manktelow from Lamberhurst).

 

Of course none of these searches are totally conclusive – there’s always one more way of searching,  But for now my brain has also turned to mush, so I shall sleep on it and have a fresh think in the morning.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

Edited 24 January , 2018 by PRC

[Phil Evans]

There are two Walter J Manktelow born between 1850 and 1900, both registered in Ticehurst RD.

Walter James, born 1868, died age 80 in 1948 - Maidstone RD

Walter John, born 1882, died age 81 in 1963 - Uckfield RD.

 

John Manktelow, who died age 68 in 1959, is still out there somewhere.

 

Phil

[PRC]

15 hours ago, Ludovica said:

The mother died in 1922 .. according to the Courier she had lost 3 sons--- and from my research  she had also lost 5 grandsons.  I have no explanation for why the CWGC has no record of this guy.

 

 

 

Okay woke up with a new thought and apologies if you've done this already.

 

Have you tracked down the mother's headstone, (and fathers, if separate), to see if the sons are also remembered on there - if so, might give you a date of death and unit. Of course absence doesn't mean he didn't die, but if, for example, the two other sons are remembered but not John, then it might tilt the balance in favour of him surviving.

 

Just in case I then tried an online search to see if a picture of the headstone was available, trying sites like Find a Grave and a Billion Graves. I didn't find that but I found something that has left me scratching my head even more.

 

Apparently there is a wooden roll of honour inside the church of St Mary the Virgin, Lamberhurst and there are three Manktelows on it - I thought there was only two?.

Private A. Manktelow, Australians.

Corporal G. Manktelow, Royal West Kents.

Private F. Manktelow, Royal Irish Rifles.

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2330978/st-mary-the-virgin-churchyard#view-photo=141662162

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2330978/st-mary-the-virgin-churchyard

 

Are these from two branches of the family?

George Manktelow is recorded on the headstone of his mother Anna, but another transcription source has that Anna as dying in 1915. However the transcription was done in 1923 so may not have recorded someone as recent as Anna, although her husband also doesn't appear to be recorded.

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/MIs/MIsLamberhurst/MIsLamberhurst.htm

 

More tea and little grey cells needed,

Peter

Edited 25 January , 2018 by PRC
Typo

[Ludovica]

George was the grandson of William and Ann,  His mother was called Anna and his father was John, Frederick and Albert's older brother Thomas. George won a Military Medal. He is one of the 5 grandsons I mentioned. Thanks for the photo! Nice to see it  

Edited 25 January , 2018 by Ludovica

[Guest]

Hi Ludovica. Just stumbled upon this thread while researching! Would you belive John Manktelow and his brothers and sisters are m great great uncles and sisters  so this is amazing research you have done! Are you related in some way to the family? Johns brother Fredericks daughter Susan Hilda, is my great grandmother  amazing to stumble on this thread!!!! I was researching Alfred but never thought i would find information like this?

[Ludovica]

On 31/03/2018 at 08:18, James Byrne said:

Hi Ludovica. Just stumbled upon this thread while researching! Would you belive John Manktelow and his brothers and sisters are m great great uncles and sisters  so this is amazing research you have done! Are you related in some way to the family? Johns brother Fredericks daughter Susan Hilda, is my great grandmother  amazing to stumble on this thread!!!! I was researching Alfred but never thought i would find information like this?

Glad you found it useful.(Susan Hilda = 7th cousin once removed) I still have no resolution to my problem  of John Manktelow

I now know that John Manktelow was #315511 16th Battalion, Sussex Yeomanry, Royal Sussex Regt and served in Egypt, Palestine and France, but I still have no idea what happened to him beyond that newspaper report. 

Edited 12 November , 2018 by Ludovica