Battle of the Dunes, July 1917

[Cnock]

For BOb,

the use of FW could be dangerous for the own troops

Cnock

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thank you very much, Cnock! The shooting could be the incident ascribed by some British/Australian sources (discussed earlier in this thread) to Lt Col Richard Abadie, 2nd Bn KRRC, who was then shot dead himself. He was my first interest in relation to this battle.

If it wouldn't be too much trouble could you post that bit - scan the German original?

Liz

[Cnock]

Hi Liz,

here it is

Cnock

[Robert Dunlop]

Coo-er. Even a name. Well done, Cnock! Even though it is just one name, what a find for Liz. Leutnant Heitkamp - I wonder if he has any living relatives?

Robert

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Coo-er. Even a name. Well done, Cnock! Even though it is just one name, what a find for Liz. Leutnant Heitkamp - I wonder if he has any living relatives?

Hear, hear.

I've only just seen it - thank you very much, Cnock, this is amazing.

I shall have to brood over it for some time before I get the full sense out of it!

Talking of living relatives, I have yet to find any for Abadie. He was the last of four professional soldier brothers, all unmarried, died in South Africa 1901, Nigeria 1904 and Ypres 1914. There must be some distant ones - maybe they'll read this thread one day.

What a find, and a connection of two losses.

Liz

[Cnock]

Liz,

glad I could help You in some way

regards,

Cnock

[Liz in Eastbourne]

You certainly did, Cnock. But I'm afraid your help is still required. Or that of any good German-speaker who happens to look in. This is my translation effort based on my low-level non-military German, please correct where necessary! I'll leave it mostly in fairly literal not-good-English word-order so you can see where I am:

Strong opposition finds K [company?] 8 in the 3rd line at the [? what's a Block house?]

Here was [Company leader - what's that in English terms? ] Lieut. Heitkamp by an English officer with a revolver-shot gravely wounded in the pelvis [ins Becken - is that right?]

If you think that's bad I'm doing even worse on the next bit , which I realise is not directly connected; it sounds like a computer translation, I'm afraid.

8.15 The [stosstrupps? lit push-troops? but that would be truppen...] are already in front of the Chateau d'eau.

Here must now a short pause [utem-pause?] occur, as they lie on the left wing of the II still a ? taking point on the Yser dam

and at the creek of Lombardzyde still under heavy own fire [fire from their own artillery}.

I know, it's pathetic.

Liz

[scuber1122]

Hi - enjoying reading this thread and learning so much about an event I had never heard of before starting to research Sgt Ben Cope.

I assume FW is Flammenwerfer = Flame thrower ? I guess the Germans used these at the Dunes like stormtrooper tactics ?

regards Bob

[Cnock]

for a start

Strong opposition finds 8th company in the 3rd line at the bunker

Here was Company leader Lieut. Heitkamp by an English officer with a revolver-shot heavily wounded in the pelvis

8.15 hrs The shock troops are already in front of the Chateau d'eau.

Here must now a short breathing pause take place, as they lie on the left wing of the IInd Battalion that still has to take objectives on the Yser dam

and at the creek of Lombardzyde where it still lay under heavy fire from their own artillery

Cnock

[Cnock]

Bob,

assume FW is Flammenwerfer = Flame thrower ? I guess the Germans used these at the Dunes like stormtrooper tactics ?

Yes and yes,

attack was in 5 waves

will try to post more in future

regards,

Cnock

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thank you very much, Cnock, this is my final version turned into more English word-order now - is it still OK? The last bit does mean that they would otherwise get shelled by their own side (which I gather did happen here), doesn't it? I am a bit shaky on tense but it seems to be written in diary-style present tense.

The 8th Company meets strong resistance in the 3rd line at the bunker.

Here Company Leader Lieut. Heitkamp is shot and seriously wounded in the pelvis by an English officer with a revolver.

8.15 hrs The shock troops are already in front of the Chateau d'eau.

Here a short breathing-space has to be allowed, as they lie on the left wing of the 2nd Battalion that still has to take objectives on the Yser dam and at the creek of Lombardzyde, which is still under heavy fire from our own artillery.

The revolver-shot bit is surprisingly difficult to put into idiomatic English as succinct as the German.

Liz

[Cnock]

Hello Liz,

Your text is OK

If the Germans had to wait to make further advance, this means that they were ahead of schedule

Cnock

[Simon_Fielding]

This is an outstanding thread - what the forum is all about. I have an interest via a family member in a Sergeant in the 216th Coy MGC who served as part of 1st Division. He died of wounds on the 11th July 1917 - any leads on the role of the 216th in the Battle?

Simon

PITT, FREDERICK BLANCHETT Initials: F B Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Serjeant Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) Unit Text: 216th Coy. Age: 27 Date of Death: 11/07/1917 Service No: 26539 Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. F. J. Pitt, of Spring Croft, Hassocks, Sussex; husband of Lena Violet Pitt, of 25, Friars Walk, Lewes, Sussex. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: 1. I. 32. Coxyde Military Cemetery

[bob lembke]

For BOb,

the use of FW could be dangerous for the own troops

Cnock

Ahh, yes! Toasted clothing and a good fright. Haven't seen this thread in a while, have not been working on FW (for Bob, I call Flammenwerfer FW as a short-hand) for quite a while, but will surely return to the topic. I am of the opinion that only rarely were German troops injured or killed by their own FW, Cnock loves to bring to my attention evidence of this happening, which I in turn welcome as more information.

This was a really interesting battle, quite well set up. I will have to poke into my material (or look a couple of years back in this thread), but I think that the Germans used about 30 FW in the attack. But they had this battle quite sewn up, and they probably weren't necessary. (I have the exact number used, the FW unit involved, and the losses tucked in my material, if anyone is interested.)

Cnock, can you give us a precise citation for the Marine regiment history? Almost certainly rather thin on the ground on this side of the Big Pond, and pricy as well. But if it exists in a library in the US my wife (the "Super-Librarian") may be able to get it for me.

Later I will go thru this part of the thread and see if I can add anything sensible.

Bob Lembke

[Cnock]

Hi Bob,

also look here for OB 3rd Marine Div

 

Cnock

[Cnock]

sad foto of British casualties on 10/7/1917 in the Dunes

Cnock

[Cnock]

Hallo,

found out where the prisoners were gathered at Middelkerke (see post 67)

German sources states that the large building was the Kursaal on the dique

Regards,

Cnock

[Liz in Eastbourne]

sad foto of British casualties on 10/7/1917 in the Dunes

This is an extraordinary picture, Cnock, and I've just been back to look at your previous pictures on this thread too - the one of German casualties by the sea in # 66 for example. Where do they come from? Can you be sure which are German and which British? I know the German casualties were much lighter at Nieuport.

Thank you for posting this.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hallo,

found out where the prisoners were gathered at Middelkerke (see post 67)

German sources states that the large building was the Kursaal on the dique

This one too is very interesting taken in conjunction with Steve's post you cite about the prisoner accounts.

Would you translate 'dique' as 'dock' here?

Liz

[Cnock]

approximate position of Col. ABADIE's command post near the Back Walk

regards,

Cnock

[Cnock]

..forgot to mention,

see the tunnel indicated above the battalion HQ.

Cnock

[Cnock]

the one of German casualties by the sea in # 66 for example. Where do they come from? Can you be sure which are German and which British? I know the German casualties were much lighter at Nieuport.

Hallo Liz,

the German caption of WWI time at the back of foto says these are German casualties,

regards,

Cnock

Liz,

dique is not dock here, it is the sea-wall

regards,

Cnock

[Liz in Eastbourne]

approximate position of Col. ABADIE's command post near the Back Walk

I am beginning to expect a photo of Col. Abadie's last stand, Cnock.

Liz

[Cnock]

British POW of Strandfest paraded at Brugge on 11/7/1917

Cnock

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Cnock , another amazing picture - where do you find them?

Does it say 11 July on it?

I'm trying to imagine what happened to the various prisoners in the accounts Steve posted and also to John Hardcastle, the man I'm interested in who started out in 21/KRRC and was transferred to the 2nd Bn after being wounded. He was taken prisoner at Nieuport and died less than four weeks later. (I found about about this only in August - that my great aunt 's fiance, lost in WW1 as I learned from childhood, was in Abadie's battalion and died after one of the very few battles in WW1 I knew anything at all about, courtesy of this forum!)

The accounts suggest they couldn't have reached Bruges before the evening of the 11th but it was summer, so the photograph could have been taken in the evening. One said he stayed the night 10/11at Middelkerke (that'll be in the Kursaal as you've now shown), where there were about 700 prisoners in total, had to march 12km to Ostende the next day (11 July) and then they were taken straight away on 12 July to Dendermonde by train or else spent 12 - 16 July in Bruges for questioning.

Your photo at #71, also very striking, is of prisoners marching to Bruges.

Did they march all the way there from Nieuport, then? From Ostend to Bruges as well?

Liz

EDIT Just checked again! Cpl Smith said in his account he didn't reach Bruges till about midnight on 11th after leaving Middelkerke at 3am, and it sounds as if he did march all the way. The wounded Cpl Warren went to Bruges partly by train and partly by wagon.

Edited 16 November , 2010 by Liz in Eastbourne