Uniform Identification Help Please

[Swally]

Guys,

I have a pictue of my granda circa 1902- 1905 I believe. Which unit does he belong to, is it RHA (which I was told) RGA or RFA.

Your help is greatly appreciated,

Swally

[Swally]

there nust be someone who knows or can point me in the correct direction to someone who does.

Best Regards,

Swally

[Gunboat]

Hi Swally

What a wonderful photograph.

I think one of the problems is that the RHA, RFA and RGA wore almost identical uniforms and are very hard to distinguish.

Is there anything that identifies where the photograph was taken?

I would suggest you may wnat to try the Royal Artillery Museum

www.firepower.org.uk

If you do find out through another source please let us know through this forum, I would be very intersted.

[Swally]

Gunboat,

thanks for the reply, it truly is a wonderful picture and so clear.

If you look closely he has a Gun Layers badge on his right sleeve and at the bottom of the left sleeve there is a (what I believe) stripe for 5 ? years service.

Up above that there is a Marksmans Badge. Judging by the length of his riding crop (if that is the correct term) it looks longer than the standard leading me to surmise that this would be used to encourage horses either behind or up front.

The trousers look to have a sort of shamy insert on the inside I imagine this would be to prolong the life of the breeks. I also believe that the tunic may be of a blueish colour.

I think that this picture was taken when he did his first stint in the army as I know that he went with the B.E.F. to Mons.

Taking the fact that he was from Aberdeen when he would have joined up ? I don't imagine that he would have joined an English regiment, his father was in the Gordon Highlanders in the 1870s............unless he ran away of course and joined up as a boy soldier.

How he ended up in Bo'ness on the outskirts of Edinburgh after his first stint is anyones guess.

I wonder if he was to rejoin his old unit when he was recalled?

After the war my Granda was to make a living by buying and selling horses and livestock and was well renowned for picking a good horse. Coming from Aberdeen I wouldn't imagine there were many gee gees running down Union Street so I imagine he learned all he knew of horses during the war.

And there endeth the story for tonight.

I take your point of going to the RHA in Woolich for help.

Thanks a lot,

Swally

[Staffsyeoman]

I don't think it's a Marksman's badge on his sleeve; I think it's a 'prize badge' as for 'best in..' (troop/sub, battery etc). Langleybastion is the man to ask. Unfortunately without sight of his shoulder titles it's almost impossible to tell what branch of the Gunners he was.

[Swally]

Thanks Phil,

I have sent Langley an E-mail looking for his help on this one.

I am also sending a copy of the picture to Woolich to see if they can help.

So here is hoping.

All the best,

Swally

[Gunboat]

I am going to put my neck on the line and rule out the RGA

The RGA would have drivers but they were not a mounted unit and both the RHA and RFA were considered as such. In the RHA all members of the battery were mounted whereas in the RFA some of the gunners rode on the gun limbers.

There was 6 men to each gun the no 1 being a sergeant and the gun layer the number 3.

All the artillery units had specialist drivers designated as Driver as opposed to gunners but this specialism would be acquired after a period as a gunner. I hadnt noticed the length of the riding crop but perhaps this is evidence of your grandfather being either the driver and riding the pair of horse at the head of the gun team or one of the mounted men on the other two pairs.

It doesn't really help your query but given your grandfathers has the gunlayers badge and had expertise with horses it is more likely he was with RH and RFA

[Muerrisch]

any chance of a close-up of the badges and indeed other uniform specifics? At the moment I favour Layer and a Prize badge, and I agree unlikely RFA. Chevron is the Good Conduct badge for TWO years service with good conduct.

[Swally]

Langley,

here is a close up of the "Layers" badge and also the "Marksman" bage.

The badge on his collar distorts somewhat when you zoom in but I have put this on too.

I hope this helps, thanks for the info and replies so far chaps,

Swally

[Gunboat]

What about the shoulder titles any chance of closeup?

[Swally]

[Hi there again,

I don't know that these shall be of much use as again they distort when you zoom in, but wire in my friend.

Thanks again.

Swally

[Muerrisch]

The Layer badge worn upper arm helps to date the photo 1901 or later. The crossed guns and star is a 2nd Prize badge, which dates from 1898.

[Swally]

Langley,

thanks for the info, would you happen to know anything about the uniform.

I wouldn't imagine he was some WW1 Driver grunt with a splendid uniform like that.

Would you say it was fairly conclusive that it was the RHA?

Would the RHA have had recruiting offices in Aberdeen in the early 1900s or would he have to have gone further afield. Would there have been any type of criteria in order to get in the RHA?

As you can probably tell by now I am trying to get as much info as I can, any snippets that you feel are worthwhile please do add to your reply.

I have added his wedding photo, which makes it clear to date the uniform picture prior to 1909 as in his wedding picture he looks somewhat older. He was born 1885 which makes him 24 in the wedding picture.

Thanks again,

Swally

[Gunboat]

Another wonderful photo and if it is not innappropriate to say what a beautiful woman your grandmother was.

The RFA and RHA uniforms were virtually identical apart from the cermonial uniforms which the former wore a helmet and the latter the busby.

You can't lay claim to the more glamorous Horse Artillery yet

[Gunboat]

Actually I am sure I have seen some illustrated cigarette cards from around this period showing artillery men in this type of uniform and I am sure that RHA had short jackets and the RFA and RGA these longer type jackets The RGA men wore trousers and and RFA and RHA riding breeches. Althought I though they were striped as opposed to khaki.

What was your grandads name?

Did he serve in the great war as a reservist?

[Swally]

Gunboat,

yes she was not a bad looking girl wasn't she, my Granda was Robert Allan born Aberdeen 1/5/1885. Looking at his uniform picture to that of his wedding it would be fair to say he is older in his wedding photograph, he was 24 when he married my Gran Mary Alexander in 1909 in Bo'ness near Falkirk, Scotland.

I believe they were kept on a reserve list for 5 years once they had left the forces.

As you know the build up of tensions in Europe began from 1910 onwards, I have a copy of him on a shipping manifest from August 1911 going to America to join his brother Alexander and returning November 1911. This is where it gets interesting, he had a son to Mary around 1910 and I am still trying to find out where this birth occured to try and nail down his where abouts as when he left for America he gave his mother's address in Aberdeen as a contact.

On his return to Scotland did he join up ?

The first born is important as he was killed when he was run over by a horse & cart in September 1914 in Bo'ness, his father's occupation was listed as a driver.

As I said before he was at the battle of Mons with the BEF, now as this was the early part of August why would Mary list him as a van driver and not as a soldier.

Had they to give their peace time occupation on the birth certificate.

Through other sources I have discovered that there was a Robert Allan who signed up at Dalhousie near Edinburgh with a service number of . Robert Allan is as popular a name in Scotland then as John Smith was in England it would appear.

There was also family folklore that he made rank of Captain and that is why he was given a smallholding in Peebles in the Scottish borders as sort of payment for his toils. It would appear that (I found this in newspaper articles) that you didn't necessarily need to be of rank to get the land.

I have phoned Kentigerns House in Glasgow to try and obtain the records of Robert Allan Captain of the RHA but at the momment they are in a deep black hole.

The first number I refered to would be that of a private and as I understand the vast majority of these records were lost during the Blitz.

Robert was one of nine children and it would appear that most of his brothers served during the war and survived.

Alexander had emigrated to America but decided to come back and fight, then returned to America.

James served with the Royal Scots 1/10 Batt "A" Coy he was gassed returned to Broxburn then emigrated to Barre Vermont and died in 1935.

Willaim was gassed too but I have no idea of what regiment he served with he died in 1951.

There is one more brother, John Smith Allan I know he too went to U.S.A in 1911 but whether he also returned to fight I have no idea........as yet.

This is an interesting story to me I suppose but possibly not to many others, even those within my immediate family, but you know how it goes.

I have sent to Woolich today to see if they can put a regiment or date onthe uniform picture for me.

The burning question I suppose is, if he was recalled and he lived in Bo'ness Scotland would he have rejoined his regiment which I presume would have been based in England.

The floor is your's my friend.

Best Regards,

Swally

[Swally]

Guys,

thanks for your help, if there is anything further to add please steam right in

Regards,

Swally

[Gunboat]

Guys,

thanks for your help, if there is anything further to add please steam right in

Regards,

Swally

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is a fascinating story. Could your grandmother have put your grandfathers rank on the certificate....as I said in earlier reply Driver was a specialist rank it seems a bit of a coincidence as we were speculating whether that was his role in the battery?

[Guest Tab]

The crossed rifles in those days was a marksman badge, now it is a weapon proficiency badge. The badge on the collar looks awfully like a Fusiliers, and the epaulets could be the rank of captain

[Swally]

Guboat,

sadly the only reference to my Granda on her son's birth cert is Van Driver.

Robert & Mary had another son in 1913, Thomas Alexander his father's occupation is listed as "Carter" we believe that he was working for his father in law who was a Haulage Contractor in the town.

If only we could turn back the clock and ask the auld guy a few questions

Swally

[Swally]

Tab,

thanks for the reply, the badge on the shoulder is very hard to make out but I think this would just determine the unit that he was with. I am not an expert by any means but I am fairly sure that it is the RHA.

Do you have any pictures that would have any bearing on your thoughts?

Best Regards,

Swally

[joseph]

Hi Swally,

What nice photographs, this is maybe more of a question than an answer. My G. Grandad was RGA from 1905 into the 20’s, in 1905 his best suit had 9 buttons, 1908-1910 it had 7 buttons, from then the standard 5 buttons. He is always wearing trousers and his puttees rolled from bottom to top. The tunic was a standard length; on your picture it looks short. The pictures I have seen of the RFA in the corresponding eras seem to have the same number of buttons on their tunics. Leads me to suggest RHA maybe LB has the answer on the buttons?.

Regards Charles

[Gunboat]

The crossed rifles in those days was a marksman badge, now it is a weapon proficiency badge. The badge on the collar looks awfully like a Fusiliers, and the epaulets could be the rank of captain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is Royal Artillery Grenade I posted an earlier thread on why Fusiliers Engineers and Artillery all had Genade Cap or Collar Badges which may be of interest

[Muerrisch]

Sadly, I think an expert on RA uniforms is needed here.

[Gunboat]

Swally

My grandfather who was in the RFA from 1907 was also a carter before he joined up.

Perhaps the Recruiting Office would encourage to those who were already experienced in dealing with horses in a haulage capacity toward the RH and RFA as they may be expected to qualify as drivers quicker and have experience in the care of the horses.

Perhaps thats why your grandfather went to the RH and RFA as opposed to a scottish regiment.