Hooge

[stiletto_33853]

Mark,

That would be great if we can, certainly a great thing for the forum and a great help to teachers such as yourself. Finally showing that when minds get together with the pertinent information this forum can achieve great things.

Bob,

Found the letter from Woodroffe but typed out

, if you need the letter as it was printed in the Chronicles let me kow and I will scan it in. Also, we have not heard from Jan since those two very unfortunate threads. I hope that he will be able to contribute to this.

Andy

[Cnock]

Hello,

In the book 'The Hazy red Hell' Fighting Experiences on the Western Front' 1914-1918,

Compiled by Tom Donovan, Clays Ltd 1999

there is a chapter about Hooge 30/7/1915, from a memoir printed for private circulation by the widow of Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth, Captain 7th Rifle Brigade, and including a sketch. pages 49 - 57.

Regards,

Cnock

[Paul Reed]

This photo, according to the reverse, was taken inside mine craters near Ypres in 1915 - one can only presume it is Hooge?

[Cnock]

The ruins of Hooge

[stiletto_33853]

Cnock,

I believe that the chapter is the article in Kay-Shuttleworths memorial book on the action, is this the sketch in there???

Paul,

Great picture, we might actaully be getting somewhere here,well done everyone.

[Cnock]

Hello Andy,

Yes, this is the sketch.

Cnock

[Cnock]

German shelters in Hooge Crater

Cnock

[bob lembke]

Guys;

Updated draft. Please feel free to post corrections as well as any new citations. I am grouping citations by contributor as a current convenience, but at some time will probably reorganize the draft.

Draft Bibliography - Hooge 7/30/15

Bert Heyvaert

War Diaries of the 14th Division

- divisional war diary

- Brigade war diaries

- battalion war diaries

- official history of the German 126th Infantry Regiment

AOK4/Jan

- Mentioned the German division here; 39. Infanterie=Division

Stiletto/Andy

7th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries (Note- these are public records and are held at the National Archives at Kew under the WO 95 series.)

8th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries - See 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade citation above.

7th Battalion KRRC War Diaries - See 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade citation above.

8th Battalion KRRC War Diaries - - See 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade citation above.

Memorial Book to Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth (Captain 7th Rifle Brigade), printed for Private Circulation at the Chiswick Press in 1918 for family and close friends, now quite rare.

Pages From A family Journal - Memorial Book to the Grenfell Brothers - Billy Grenfell 2nd - (note: This was privately printed by Spottiswade, Ballantyne & Co. Ltd in 1916 by Lady Desborough and covers the life of Billy Grenfell, now quite a rare book.)

Lieut 8th Rifle Brigade KIA 30-7-15

Rifle Brigade Chronicles - A yearly journal of the Regiment with various years covering articles of this action. Published annually for 1890 to 2003

Rifle Brigade Whos Who

Officers papers of officers involved in the action. (Note: They are public recorda and are held at the National Archives at Kew.)

Biographies of most Rifle Brigade Officers are found in the Obituary Section of the Rifle Brigade Chronicles and The Rifle Brigade Association Journal, which is a twice yearly booklet on the Regiment.

The History of The Rifle Brigade in the War of 1914 - 1918 (3 volumes). Printed by Butler & Tanner Ltd, author is Reginald Berkeley. It covers 1914 - 1916.

The Annals of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps; Volume 5, The Great War, was written by Major-General Sir Stuart Hare.

simmyred

- 8th Battalion, Rifle Brigade regimental history.

Bob Lembke

Infantry Regiment (8th Wuerttemburg) Nr. 126 Grand Duke Friedrich von Baden in the World War 1914-1918; Eugen Glueck and Alfred Wald; Stuttgart; Ch. Belser; 1929. (Note - This book is in the holdings of the Deutsches Buecherei Leipzig. Call #: 1920 B 329 - 44) The joint title: The Wuerttemburg Regiments in the World War 1914-1918, Volume 44. The nature of the citation suggests but does not explicitly state that Leipzig, probably the best German library on WW I, has other or perhaps all of this series of official histories.

Mark Hone

The Corporal Holmes letters (Letter relevant to the 30. 7. 15. Attack at Hooge has had its scan posted on Great War Forum/Western Front/Atrocity at Hooge thread in November 2005.)

[CROONAERT]

Has Official History of the War - Military Operations France and Belgium 1915** (Volume 2) been mentioned?

Dave.

[bob lembke]

Dave;

Thanks for mentioning it. Not at all. Will go into the next update. Guys, don't be bashful; mention the most obvious sources. I don't know the British literature "for beans". This is good, as we must create a source that assumes nothing on the part of the reader/user. That probably is a good reason why I am a good person to edit this.

When I have time I will go back and enter references to the various things that pals have posted.

Bob Lembke

[Alan_J]

I have a couple of wartime images of Hooge crater - one has already been posted by Cnock (a couple of posts above) - this is the other. It is actually on a Feldpost postcard dated February 1916.

Alan

[Bert Heyvaert]

Cnock,

I am afraid that the crater on your picture is not the Hooge Crater. It is one of the craters at the Bluff, a few miles to the South of Hooge. It was blown by the Germans at the end of februari 1916 and they held it for a few weeks, during which your picture was taken. The British (3th division) retook the crater in the beginning of march 1916.

I am not sure if the other picture shown here is the Hooge crater as well. It looks too shallow to me.

Regards,

Bert

[Alan_J]

Bert,

The picture I posted has the legend " Minentrichter von Hooge b. Ypern" under it. The postmark is 26 Feb 1916, so I don't think it could be the Bluff crater.

Alan

[bob lembke]

Guys; Another post of the draft below, with some suggestions for more info. At some point I will probably convert to grouping the listings by the class of source. I use Primary, Secondary, Official Histories, and Documents. I include Letters in Primary, usually. We might also add a Letters category, and Maps and Photos. Any ideas, suggestions welcome.

Draft Bibliography

Hooge 7/30/15

Bert Heyvaert

War Diaries of the 14th Division

- divisional war diary (Anyone have a citation here?)

- Brigade war diaries “ ”

- battalion war diaries (Are these the battalions mentioned below? What is KRRC? King’s Regiment xxxx yyyyy?)

- official history of the German 126th Infantry Regiment

AOK4/Jan

- Mentioned the German division here; 39. Infanterie=Division (Is there a divisional history? I couldn’t find one.)

Stiletto/Andy

7th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries (Note- these are public records and are held at the National Archives at Kew under the WO 95 series.)

8th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries - See 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade citation above.

7th Battalion KRRC War Diaries - See 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade citation above.

8th Battalion KRRC War Diaries - - See 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade citation above.

Memorial Book to Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth (Captain 7th Rifle Brigade), printed for Private Circulation at the Chiswick Press in 1918 for family and close friends, now quite rare.

Pages From A family Journal - Memorial Book to the Grenfell Brothers - Billy Grenfell 2nd - (note: This was privately printed by Spottiswade, Ballantyne & Co. Ltd in 1916 by Lady Desborough and covers the life of Billy Grenfell, now quite a rare book.)

Lieut 8th Rifle Brigade KIA 30-7-15

Rifle Brigade Chronicles - A yearly journal of the Regiment with various years covering articles of this action. Published annually for 1890 to 2003

Rifle Brigade Whos Who

Officers papers of officers involved in the action. (Note: They are public records and are held at the National Archives at Kew.)

Biographies of most Rifle Brigade Officers are found in the Obituary Section of the Rifle Brigade Chronicles and The Rifle Brigade Association Journal, which is a twice yearly booklet on the Regiment.

The History of The Rifle Brigade in the War of 1914 - 1918 (3 volumes). Printed by Butler & Tanner Ltd, author is Reginald Berkeley. It covers 1914 - 1916.

The Annals of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps; Volume 5, The Great War, was written by Major-General Sir Stuart Hare.

simmyred

- 8th Battalion, Rifle Brigade regimental history.

Bob Lembke

Infantry Regiment (8th Wuerttemburg) Nr. 126 Grand Duke Friedrich von Baden in the World War 1914-1918; Eugen Glueck and Alfred Wald; Stuttgart; Ch. Belser; 1929. (Note - This book is in the holdings of the Deutsches Buecherei Leipzig. Call #: 1920 B 329 - 44) The joint title: The Wuerttemburg Regiments in the World War 1914-1918, Volume 44 . The nature of the citation suggests but does not explicitly state that Leipzig, probably the best German library on WW I, has other or perhaps all of this series of official histories.

Der Weltkrieg 1914-1918, Reichsarchiv. I have never seen it, but since Band 7 (Volume 7) goes up to mid-April 1915 on the Western Front, Volume 8 of this series must cover Hooge July 1915. This is one of the two official history series produced after the war by the central German government; it is scarcer and more expensive than the other series, Schlachten des Weltkrieges , Reichsarchiv. I will research if the latter covers Hooge July 1915 (I have the complete set minus one volume.) The second series does not attempt to cover all of the war, as the title implies.

Mark Hone

The Corporal Holmes letters (Letter relevant to the 30. 7. 15. Attack at Hooge has had its scan posted on Great War Forum/Western Front/Atrocity at Hooge thread in November 2005.)

(Mark, do you want to specifically cite the relevant letters, or all of them?)

Dave Croonaert

Official History of the War - Military Operations France and Belgium 1915, Volume 2

(Any more specific info for a complete citation?)

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

Guys;

I have an index to the Schlachten des Weltkrieges series that I developed recently to manage my own set. (There are 38 volumes, I think; I have 55 volumes over the two editions {they seem identical except for cover color and material, except a minority are numbered differently within the series.}, some duplicates). Studying it, I think it is unlikely that any volume covers this engagement. The title of the series translates as Battles of the World War, and it is largely studies of major battles or campaigns. For example, there are four volumes on Verdun.

The other series, Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918, attempts to cover the entire war, but tends to cover a given engagement much more briefly than Schlachten, if that series actually covers an engagement. The later also often mentions the feats of particular soldiers, down to the level of NCOs.

I'll put a summary of this information in the draft bibliography.

Incidentally, Weltkrieg volumes tend to cost about 60 Euros, and may be about 500 pages long. The later volumes become increasingly scarce. Schlachten volumes are about 200 pages each, in a smaller format, but often go for about 7 Euros, and are very common. Both have multiple detached maps and sometimes charts and diagrams, often some or all can be missing when you purchase these books. Discuss this with your supplier.

Bob Lembke

[stiletto_33853]

Bob,

The Rifle Brigade Who's who was compiled by Colonel W.P.S. Curtis, O.B.E. and is a roll of Regular Officers who served in the Regiment from 1905 - 1963.

Just a couple of minor corrections for you.

The Volume one of The Rifle Brigade which covers 1914 - 1916 was the only one I listed with an author. Volume 2 is written by William Seymour and covers 1917 - 1918, Volume 3 which is solely a list of awarded decorations, or mentioned in despatches for services in the Great War was compiled by Lieut. - Colonel T.R. Eastwood, D.S.O., M.C. and Major H.G. Parkyn, O.B.E.

The Annals of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps by Major - General Sir Steuart Hare, the Steuart is spelt as indicated and not the more common way of spelling.

With the other bits and pieces such as the piece by Kay-Shuttleworth, do you want them placed here or do you intend to compile them together elsewhere.

Andy

[bob lembke]

Andy,

Thanks for the info fleshing out the citations. Bring the bits and pieces on. For example, I think I will put in Volumes 2 & 3 of The Rifle Brigade, if only to tell a user of the bibliography that he has no reason to bother consulting one or the other of the other volumes. I want to put in whatever casts light on Hooge in, it could be better edited later. I would like to be as complete as possible. Each of us have different sub-interests in the Hooge engagement; e.g., I am interested in Flammenwerfer, another pal may be centrally interested in a certain battalion, or possibly in the counter-attack. So let's cast the net wide.

As the bibliography grows in length I will post updates less frequently, lest the baby grow into a monster and the thread to grow to excessive length.

I am leaving it organized by contributor for the present for ease in matching new suggestions or amplifications. Again, when it is mature, I will re-order it by class of source, possibly putting in a little code citing the contributor.

We banter in our threads about this and that, we learn a little and have fun, but at the end a lot of time has been spent and there is not too much left from the effort, certainly not readily accessed and comprehended. I want us to be left with something of lasting and convenient value. Frankly, I would want something that would still last if, Heavens forbid, the Forum (Blessed be its Name) goes belly up. When we have a mature document I will be happy to e-mail, perhaps with a file attachment, the bibliography to anyone wishing it, or snail-mail anyone so that all the cutsy but sometimes useful formatting is not lost. It is in my word processing master copy; every time I snip and paste it into the thread all sorts of stuff is lost. In'shallah, we will have something we can have at hand 10 years from now.

Bob Lembke

[stiletto_33853]

Bob,

When I get these older and rarer books I tend to put them on CD-ROM solely to save wear and tear on them as they are becoming precious and too great a source of information to lose through day to day wear.

I will place Kay Shuttleworths account of the attack and counter-attack on this thread but it is some 15 pages long. As you have said we do not want to make the thread excessive but it is pertinent and a good account.

Andy

[Cnock]

The Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps

Volume 5 The Geat War

By Major-General Sir Steuart HARE

[Cnock]

The Aannals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps

[Cnock]

The ANNALS OF THE KRRC

[Cnock]

THE ANNALS OF THE KRRC

[Cnock]

First Page

[stiletto_33853]

Kay-Shuttleworth

[stiletto_33853]

Kay-Shuttleworth