stiletto_33853 Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Here we go again. OK Bob lets start this here shall we. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2005 And to start the ball rolling 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries 7th Battalion KRRC War Diaries 8th Battalion KRRC War Diaries Memorial Book to Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth (Captain 7th Rifle Brigade) Pages From A family Journal - Memorial Book to the Grenfell Brothers - Billy Grenfell 2nd Lieut 8th Rifle Brigade KIA 30-7-15 Rifle Brigade Chronicles 1890 to 2003 Rifle Brigade Whos Who Officers papers of a lot of the officers involved in the action Bios on most Rifle Brigade Officers The History of The Rifle Brigade in the War of 1914 - 1918 (3 volumes) The Annals of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps Volume 5 The Great War 14th Division War Diary and some more that I will add later. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Draft Bibliography Bert Heyvaert War Diaries of the 14th Division - divisional war diary - Brigade war diaries - battalion war diaries - official history of the German 126th Infantry Regiment AOK4/Jan - Mentioned the German division here; have missed it Stiletto/Andy 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries 7th Battalion KRRC War Diaries 8th Battalion KRRC War Diries Memorial Book to Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth (Captain 7th Rifle Brigade) Pages From A family Journal - Memorial Book to the Grenfell Brothers - Billy Grenfell 2nd Lieut 8th Rifle Brigade KIA 30-7-15 Rifle Brigade Chronicles 1890 to 2003 Rifle Brigade Whos Who Officers papers of a lot of the officers involved in the action Bios on most Rifle Brigade Officers The History of The Rifle Brigade in the War of 1914 - 1918 (3 volumes) The Annals of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps Volume 5 The Great War simmyred - 8th Rifle Brigade regimental history. Question? is "8th Rifle Brigade" the 8th Battalion, Rifle Brigade? Or was there also a 8th Rifle Brigade? Keep the additions and corrections flowing. I will do some research on the German side, any leads there welcome. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Bob, Its the 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 No promises but I believe I have the regimental histories of the German units involved, some of whaich might already be translated. I am completing an article on Leopold Rothärmel and editing a manuscript, but I will see what I can do. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Ralph, Many thanks, hope we can get this thing back on track again. It would be good for everyone to combine forces and see what resources we have all got and to see if we can do anything with it all. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmyred Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 I'm in. Am at your disposal. Let me know if I can help in any way, especially with regard to the military strategy of the day or anything else come to that. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 I'm in. Am at your disposal. Let me know if I can help in any way, especially with regard to the military strategy of the day or anything else come to that. Cheers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Many thanks. I think that a good starting point would be to build a good bibliography for sources for the engagement, and then branch out from there, notating where materials can be found, and seeing how some materials can be made available. Then possibly we could go further. I would imagine that actually jointly writing something might be a fatal experience,though. Below, as raw material, is something lifted out of the Deutsches Buecherei Leipzig, the best library on WW I in Germany. Titel: Das 8. Württembergische Infanterie-Regiment Nr 126 Großherzog Friedrich von Baden im Weltkrieg 1914-1918 / Glück ; Wald Verfasser: Glück, Eugen ; Wald, Alfred Verleger: Stuttgart : Ch. Belser Erscheinungsjahr: 1929 Umfang/Format: X, 376; 56 S. : Mit 149 Abb., 33 Text- u. 56 [farb.] Anlageskizzen Gesamttitel: Die @württembergischen Regimenter im Weltkrieg 1914-1918 ; Bd. 44 Anmerkungen: Nebent.: Infanterie-Regiment 126 im Weltkrieg Einband/Preis: Hlw. u. geh. : 12.- Signatur: 1920 B 329 - 44 I will take mercy and translate the above into a proper citation, in English, and insert it into the draft bibliography. 126. Infanterie=Regiment is the attacking unit, according to "AOK4", an authorative source. I did not get a hit in Leipzig's catalog for 39. Infanterie Division. Any one with a proper citation for a divisional history, if there is one? Keep those sources flowing in. We will have a resource that we can print off or keep on a nicely formatted word processing document which I could send, e-mail, etc. to us when it is in a complete state, something that will be useful for future reference. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 I have a copy of the 126th IR book and a good set of color maps showing the events of the day in sequence. Let me see if I can locate it and post the maps at least. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Not the best copies so I will dig out the originals and scan in larger formet, frame by frame. Still, I thought it would be nice to see them now. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Another one from a bit later I believe. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Here is an upgrade to the evolving bibliography. Draft Bibliography Hooge 7/30/15 Bert Heyvaert War Diaries of the 14th Division - divisional war diary - Brigade war diaries - battalion war diaries - official history of the German 126th Infantry Regiment AOK4/Jan - Mentioned the German division here; 39. Infanterie=Division Stiletto/Andy 7th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries 8th Battalion Rifle Brigade War Diaries 7th Battalion KRRC War Diaries 8th Battalion KRRC War Diries Memorial Book to Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth (Captain 7th Rifle Brigade) Pages From A family Journal - Memorial Book to the Grenfell Brothers - Billy Grenfell 2nd Lieut 8th Rifle Brigade KIA 30-7-15 Rifle Brigade Chronicles 1890 to 2003 Rifle Brigade Whos Who Officers papers of a lot of the officers involved in the action Bios on most Rifle Brigade Officers The History of The Rifle Brigade in the War of 1914 - 1918 (3 volumes) The Annals of the Kings Royal Rifle Corps Volume 5 The Great War simmyred - 8th Battalion, Rifle Brigade regimental history. Bob Lembke Infantry Regiment (8th Wuerttemburg) Nr. 126 Grand Duke Friedrich von Baden in the World War 1914-1918; Eugen Glueck and Alfred Wald; Stuttgart; Ch. Belser; 1929. (Note - This book is in the holdings of the Deutsches Buecherei Leipzig. Call #: 1920 B 329 - 44) The joint title: The Wuerttemburg Regiments in the World War 1914-1918, Volume 44. Anyone have ideas on how to link available materials to their citation? If Ralph or anyone else can get me scans of those pages of the history of IR 126 covering this engagement I could take a run at translating it and figuring out a way to make it available to the pals. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 As the person who originally began the other thread (before it took an unfortunate turn), am I allowed to assist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Mark, Would appreciate your assistance in anyway you can. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmyred Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Glad to see Mark here. I'm away for the weekend but will be back early next week. Ralph: would you check if you have some of these following German units please? 39th, 172, 246, 54. As I said previously: I was a novice at translation and so concentrated solely on the 126. Cheers. I have duplicate of Andy's list so could perhaps share some of the workload. However, I also have a great deal of further information and research material. I've been gathering for many years. I'm writing a book on this day at the moment. Bob: thanks again for your offer with translations. Looks like you'll be busy! Good luck everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Come on guys; the baby is dying in the cradle. Perhaps pals can clarify their contributions. Are War Diaries published, public records held at Kew, or what? If sources are published books, a bit more detail; author, if any; publisher, date of publication, etc. Mark, shall we list your letters of Corporal Holmes? (Would not have to be individually.) I will take another run with the sharper scan and send you my transcription. Throw us some more/more complete source citations and I will weave them into the draft I have in word processing. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 A thundering scilence. The poor little kid is on life support. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 I'll have a look at what I have; do want images posted here? I may have some aerials from a later period? The war diaries are all at TNA in Kew in WO95. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 List the Holmes letters by all means. I'll try and track down references to the action in the reamining letters he wrote before his death in November 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 19 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2005 Whoa, Sorry Bob. From my contributions The War Diaries of the 7th & 8th Rifle Brigade and 7th & 8th Kings Rifle Corps are public records and are held at the National Archives at Kew under the WO 95 series. The memorial book to Edward James Kay-Shuttleworth was printed for Private Circulation at the Chiswick Press in 1918 for family and close friends and is now quite rare. Pages from a Family Journal was privately printed by Spottiswade, Ballantyne & Co. Ltd in 1916 by Lady Desborough and covers the life of Billy Grenfell, once again now quite a rare book. The Rifle Brigade Chronicles is a yearly journal of the Regiment with various years covering articles of this action. The officers papers are public record and held at the National Archives at Kew. The biographies of the Officers are found in the Obituary section of the Rifle Brigade Chronicels and The Rifle Brigade Association Journal which is a twice yearly booklet on the Regiment. The History of The Rifle Brigade in the War of 1914 - 1918 Volume 1 is printed by Butler & Tanner Ltd, authoor is Reginald Berkeley and covers 1914 - 1916. The Annals of The Kings Royal Rifle Corps Volume 5, The Great War is written by Major-General Sir Steuart Hare. I will post an article in the Chronicles here on Carey by his son, hopefully you will be able to read it. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 19 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2005 Sydney Woodroffe's last letter before he was killed in this action I have placed elsewhere on the forum, at the moment I cannot find it and will repost it here if necessary. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 The baby is still breathing! I will work the just-now burst of info into my draft bibliography that I am keeping on WordPerfect. The latter can keep all sorts of formatting, etc.; when I copy it into a post a lot of the cute formatting is lost but you guys will get the info. When we have something resembling a finished/useful product we can get it out to you by other means; I could sent the word processing file as an attachment, I can fax it out of the computer, I could even mail hardcopy. It's great that people are posting availability information. I will add same as notes to the end of each source's formal citation. Some of this information is obvious to those of you who, for example, have a "frequent flyer" pass to Kew; others of us don't have a clue. Some of this stuff that is being listed is in private possession of certain pals; we will have to figure out how some of that could be made available to others. We must be sensitive to the fact that some people may have the time to scan material, or otherwise help make it available; and others have serious time constraints and can very helpfully add sources they know of, but not spend hours scanning or otherwise dealing with the distribution of material. I will confess that I have a particular problem; I have several sources that are very rare and almost unknown in the English-speaking world, and I have made a very serious agreement with a writing partner that we keep these sources, at least the citations, to ourselves until our book (on German flame throwers) is published. These sources have only a few lines specific to Hooge, but the info is important; I may be in the odd position of being happy to post and distribute the actual info, while for the present keeping a precise citation to myself. I will give assurances that the info is remarkably reliable and authorative. I am sure that the above seems nuts, but that is where I find myself. Once my book is out I even would like to privately publish some of my scarce or rare sources, some in translation. So, any suggestions on how we can make some of the sources, the actual materials, available, would be welcome. In the meanwhile let's cooperate and build a really useful bibliography. I will fold the new info into the draft and perhaps post the enhanced draft tomorrow. Keep those new or enhanced citations flowing!!! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 What I can do is add a notation to a citation when something has been posted in the thread, like the Carey article that "stiletto" has just very usefully posted, so that we can find our way back to the posted scans when you want to a year or so from now. This solution to availability (like any) is not perfect. Again, any ideas welcome. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 Andy; The Carey article is wonderful! Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 with all this information we could end up producing a forum virtual guide to the Hooge 'flame fight'. What's especially good , as I found when researching my school battlefields tour this year, is that much of the battlefield is readily accessible or easily visible from e.g the back of Hooge Crater cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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