One missing off CWGC??

[Drummy]

I noticed (on BACSA website) details of a burial at Maymyo Cemetery:

ALCOTT, Leonard. Pte 4908203.

1st Bn South Staffs

Died 27th April 1920, age 20.

Probably me having a bad day but I can't seem to find this casualty on the CWGC database.

[ian turner]

Can see neither the casualty nor the cemetery on CWGC.....

Ian

[Drummy]

Cheers for double checking, I thought I was having a mad moment using the search engine. As for the cemetery, like hundreds of other British cantonment/garrison cemeteries in that country, I imagine it was 'written off' as unmaintainable and the few who died during the CWGC dates being commemorated elsewhere, though perhaps not so for Pte Alcott?

[welshdoc]

Unless he was killed or died of illness in conflict area (or of wounds received during a conflict) he would be recognised as war dead hence not on the CWGC register. Does the website suggest he died in action? Gareth

[Drummy]

To my knowledge the cause of death is irrelevant for CWGC, as long as the soldier died during the defined period.

[Alan_J]

To my knowledge the cause of death is irrelevant for CWGC, as long as the soldier died during the defined period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct, see Terry Denham's full explanation in another thread here.

Alan

[shaymen]

Had a look at Overseas deaths - not mentioned there either

Glyn

[Max]

I noticed (on BACSA website) details of a burial at Maymyo Cemetery:

ALCOTT, Leonard. Pte 4908203.

1st Bn South Staffs

Died 27th April 1920, age 20.

Probably me having a bad day but I can't seem to find this casualty on the CWGC database.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Drummy

Is there a possibility, despite the rank and number on the gravestone, that Leonard died after leaving the service? I have seen a few graves were the "occupants" had details of their military service inscribed on the stone although at the time of death they were civilians.

An extant service record would clear it up.

Andy

[Alan_J]

See point (2) Terry Denham made on the thread I posted the link to above.

Wouldn't he still qualify on this basis, even if he had left the service - as long as his injury was sustained during service?

You're right; service record would answer this probably.

Alan

[Drummy]

Anybody know if the 1st South Staffs were serving in that area in 1920 that may confirm things a bit more?

[Max]

Wouldn't he still qualify on this basis, even if he had left the service - as long as his injury was sustained during service?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Alan

Yes, you are quite right that if he died of injuries sustained whilst in service he would qualify. Trouble is, we don't know if this is the case.

He doesn't appear on SDGW either which isn't a surprise given the date.

Andy

[Terry Denham]

Andy's post is quite correct. You need evidence that he was still in service at death otherwise the additional qualification of dying of wounds/illness caused by service kicks in.

You will see modern burials of former soldiers which still include their regt and number which can be mistaken for a serving soldier.

I do n ot have access to my records at the moment as I am working away in Glasgow but I shall have a proper check when I return on Sunday.

[ian turner]

Also could not find him in the NA MIC, but there is a John Alcott, South Staffs Regt, but differing number.

Any connections I wonder?

Ian

[Drummy]

The details of this soldier have come from a record of grave inscriptions in the cemetery (found on http://www.bacsa.org.uk ). The fact that this cemetery is in Burma (i think) and that he was only 20 when he died, for me rules out him being a former soldier with previous service details on the grave. I would be inclined to think more of him being a young soldier, possibly joined after hostilities (hence no medal entitlement) and sent to India to serve with the 1st South Staffs, probably dying of disease. Hope Terry may be able to shed some light.

[Drummy]

Apologisies, even more convinced that he was serving with the 1st South Staffs at the time of death. I have just checked his entry on BACSA and his age is 18 not 20 as I stated, further more there is a 1st South Staffs soldier buried there who died in 1922 and sadly a burial of the 7th month old daughter of RSM Parr, 1st South Staffs, she died in 1922. This further indicates that this unit was based in the vicinity of Maymyo.

[Terry Denham]

Without access to my records, all I can tell you before Sunday is that Maymyo Cemetery was cleared of its 22 Commonwealth war graves in the 1950s and they were moved to Taukkyan War Cemetery.

[Drummy]

Terry many thanks, any info you could provide would be appreciated. I noted another burial in this cemetery's records - Sgt Peter R. B. CARTON, Burma Mobile Battery, I.E.F., 'Died in Maymyo on Saturday 3rd August 1918, age 25'. Cannot find this man (presuming his unit was a military unit?) on the CWGC site either.

[Terry Denham]

What 'cemetery records' are you looking at? We have to allow for the fact that these may not be accurate.

[Drummy]

Take a look at http://www.bacsa.org.uk

click on project then transcriptions and they give an example of their work (basically recording forgotten colonial cemeteries) by showing transcriptions of all the headstones marking graves which survive in Maymyo cemetery. I appreciate they may not be accurate but equally so perhaps one or two men never submitted to IWGC at the time?

[Chris_Baker]

1st South Staffords were indeed at Maymyo at the time, having gone from Italy in late 1918 via England and Singapore. They stayed until 1925 when going on to Bombay.

[Terry Denham]

Drummy

There is certainly no record matching or similar to either Alcott or Carton in the CWGC list.

I have looked at the site you mentioned to see the possible record of their burial. Obviously this mention does not constitute proof that they were in the forces at death or died as a result of service after discharge. It does not even constitute evidence that they died or are buried there. However, it is sufficient for further investigation.

Proof will now be needed of their death and their status at death from official documentation.

[Drummy]

I will start to look into it to see if any records surviving confirming it one way or the other. Thanks Neil.

[Terry Denham]

FOUND HIM!

Leonard Alcott Age 19 died Maymyo and listed in the Overseas Army Death Index.

He died in 1923 and he therefore does not qualify for CWGC commemoration. Obviously an error on the Bacsa website whose info started this thread. (Unless the original GRO Army Index is wrong!).

Sadly, there is no equivalent index online for the Indian armed forces and so I have not yet found Carton.

[Drummy]

Terry,

Many thanks for tracking him down and solving this mystery! As for Carton are there any likely routes to establish whether he was a casualty or not? I presume (but don't know for sure) that I.E.F stoood for Indian Expeditionary Force?

[Terry Denham]

There may be appropriate records amongst the India Office archives at the British Library but I have to admit to being unfamiliar with these and their contents.