Guest RW Lapp Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Hello all, Can someone help me identify two uniforms of my great grandfather, Pte. George Alfred Smith L/7655? In the Great War he wore a normal infantry uniform and was in A Company, 1st Bn. Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment. But I have these two pre-war photos, from when he was about 18 and thus ca. 1903/1904. I was told he was in the cavalry for several years before he was forced to quit because of his wife... The first was taken in Valetta, Malta...the second, I haven't a clue. Could either of these uniforms give a clue as to if he was connected with the West Kents already at that time, or perhaps another regiment? Any help is appreciated. Regards, Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Hi Raymond, The bottom picture certainly shows him wearing a red tunic with Q.O. Royal West Kent collar badges and, if you look carefully, you can just make out the white embroidered "R.West Kent" on the shoulder strap. The khaki drill uniform in Malta is certainly an infantry pattern too so I would think it is a pretty safe bet that's QORWK too - I would guess slightly later than the other picture. I would have dated the red tunic earlier than 1903 as I would have expected them to have brass shoulder titles by then but I could be wrong. The Good Conduct stripe on the left cuff of his khaki drill tunic indicates four years service if that's of any help. With best wishes, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Taff & Raymond, I'm pleased that you've attached the photo of him wearing his scarlet tunic as it may be a 1902 pattern scarlet tunic adopted on the disappearance of the "jampot" cuff. At the same time the white facings worn by non-Royal regiments were replaced by the old coloured facings which disappeared in 1881. Langley Baston who uses this Forum regularly was trying to establish the wearing of a similar pattern to this as worn by the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and it's possible he may come on and identify whether or not the two are the same. It looks to me from communication with Langley that "Royal" regiments adopted a pattern different from non-Royal units, this is based on my photograph collection and Regimental journals to the Northumberland Fusiliers which were non-Royal and so re-adopted their old "gosling green" facings on the cuff and collar, but don't seem to have adopted a similar pattern of tunic as shown in your photograph. "Royal" regiments kept the dark blue facing colour for collar and cuffs, but seem to have added white piping on the pointed cuff to emphasise it. At the same time they've removed the white piping from around the base of the collar and moved it to the top of the collar, in line with tunics being worn by Guards units. One source that I have says that the white embroided shoulder titles were replaced in 1908 with brass titles. So it looks like this photo was taken between 1902 and 1908. Sorry to have waffled on for so long, but I really love this sort of thing. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RW Lapp Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Graham & Taff, Many thanks for the comments thus far. As far as dates are concerned, I was only going on what family had said, and we all know that this is not always the most accurate after 100 years or so... He was born in August 1886 and was still at home in 1901 when he was 15. And he difinitely looks young in the tunic photo, if that helps with dating it at all. So, as someone who really is a novice when it comes to uniforms in general, is there anything from either photos that might say "cavalry"? The only reason I mention it is because that is what I was told, as well as the helmet(?) in the first picture. All that said, I thought that the QORWKs were infantry only. Not anything to do with uniforms, but would the prefix L in L/7655 be for lancers or something entirely different? I really do appreciate all comments that anyone might have in addition. It's a huge interest of mine, even though I am well out of my depth. Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Raymond, Cavalry uniforms, infact all the branches of the cavalry Household Cavalry, Dragoons, Hussars, Lancers wore patterns of tunic which were totally different to each other as well as the infantry. The L/7655 can be associated with infantry units also, as some RWK researcher is bound to point out. I have a Discharge Certificate to a pre-war Royal Fusilier and his number was L/12171. It seems to be something common to Home Counties units for some reason, but I'm not certain what it stands for. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 The helmet in the first picture looks like a tropical service helmet that would have been issued to infantry and cavalry for warmer climes. One of the experts will give you some more info I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 I concur with Graham about the dating, and can add that the Good Conduct badge was not for Four years, but for two years. The four seems an enduring myth, possibly originating in Canada. I see no suggestion whatever of cavalry. The Malta photo is interesting: the frock [jacket] is a fairly late pattern ..... until about 1906 the collars were meagre and short with no turn down, held tight closed by hooks and eyes, and pockets tended to be straight-flapped rather than sculpted. Nice photos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RW Lapp Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Hello, Okay, it already becomes a lot clearer for me after the comments that I've received. You've all been quite helpful. The helmet and L-prefix and old stories had me assuming cavalry, but that's why I came here to ask those more knowledgable. Langley: you mention until about 1906 the different style of collar and the tendancy of pockets to be straight-flapped. So would you say that this Malta photo would be more around that date or even a little later? Once again, thanks for the help! Regards, Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 One problem with attempting precise dating is that uniform items were not introduced simultaneously all over the world, for obvious reasons. The jacket says post 1906 [or so], the helmet is probably not much later [as a new design, the Wolseley, was not long in coming]. However, why not find out when the battalion was in Malta? That is beyond my collection's reach but Army Lists always say where each battalion is, each month. Full set at national archive, or regimental museum bound to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 Raymond, Had the answer on my bookshelf all the time. 1st Bn,QORWK were in Malta briefly in 1902 and then as part of the Garrison from 1904 to 1906. Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 19 November , 2005 Share Posted 19 November , 2005 I feel smug ...... very smug! Lovely feeling, being right! Yessssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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