PhilB Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Custodians when it's done for 'love'. Parasites if it's all about profit. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Where does that place medal dealers? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 You mean that it was a stroke of luck for you that this man died all those years ago, prematurely, possibly in agony and far, far from home?? No offence intended to Liam as an individual, but this is quite a common idea among medal collectors - the idea of being especially lucky if you get a medal cheap and it turns out that the man named on the medal died. And the less you paid for the medal, the luckier you are. I must explain that I don't collect medals myself so perhaps this is why I don't understand this part of the hobby, but it seems more to with financial gain than guardianship. Tom <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tom - I can why you make this point and I dont think I have ever been in the position of unknowingly purchasing a casualty group - but if I had I would be quite pleased if that is the right term, because it would increase my opportunities I finding out about the recipient of the medal and giving back some form of identity and memorial of the man - it would mean more money and time spent but personally I think this would be worthwhile so you can fully understand and appreciate the medals. Personally speaking any financial profit in this regard would be immaterial to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 I find it amazing that so many people have such strong feelings about medal collecting. I cant for the life of me see why collecting appears in some eyes such an evil thing to do. while I reiterate an earlier post that it was sad when soldiers and their families sold their medals out of neccesity, from what I can gather from my and other families that the owners and families did not give a dam. I do not and never will understand why people sell sentimental items (in my eyes) but they do. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 I have quite a few medals although my real passion has always been for uniforms and equipment. However, I remember as late as the 1980s, antique dealers with buckets full of British War Medals which they used to cut from the pairs and trios as the silver scrap was worth more than the medals themselves. It is so easy to forget just how 'worthless' these medals were considered to be up until very recently. If the family has chosen to sell them and someone is foolish enough to pay hundreds of pounds for a set of medals the dead soldier never saw, good luck to them both... Quite recently the local RBL put a lady onto me who was in her 90s and wanted to 'put her things in order before she died'. She gave her late husband's medals, including his TA medal; paperwork and photographs to me as she said that her children and her grandchildren were 'not in the slightest bit interested' in them. I may not be able to put them on public display, and they may have to spend quite a bit of time in a drawer, but no one will ever be able to say that I am not interested in them. It certainly gave the old lady a great deal of pleasure to know that they were going to a good home - and I shall never sell them. Sadly I do know collectors who are unscrupulous and put photographs of anonymous soldiers with medals along with cap badges and crucifixes and all manner of other artifacts. Fake scrolls stained with tea and all fixed into an old frame and sold as original. This is despicable; not only is it fraud, it robs soldiers of their true identities as, in years to come, no one will know the truth - and all for the sake of a few extra pounds. Likewise, the habit of breaking up groups of medals, documents and photographs which have been together for 90 years - just because a medal collector may not want the paperwork and an ephemera dealer won't want the medals. As Andrew says... Parasites... A very well known medal collector has an MM group won by a relative of mine. He says he will let me have it... eventually! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Johnson Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Where does that place medal dealers? Phil B <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I used to collect & deal but not anymore, apart from the odd item here and there. My view was that that if items were bought and sold legitimately and at a fair price, there was no problem. The trouble is, as in all walks of life, not everyone behaved that way and so the pleasure is soon taken out of it. I have met many collectors and dealers who had nothing but passion for their subject and a love of the articles they bought and sold. However, there were many "Del Boy's" who were only interested in buying cheaply and selling at vastly inflated prices. These people often thought nothing of splitting groups if they believed there was more money to be made, despite the fact that anyone with the most basic of knowledge about the subject knows this is a cardinal sin both ethically and financially. It was these people that eventually made me turn my back on both collecting and dealing along with the fact that prices began to rise at an incredible rate due mainly, I believe, to online auctions. Nowadays, I stick to researching the man and his military career which I find far more satisfying and doesn't tie up great sums of money either. There are parasites in all walks of life and there those honourable individuals who could be considered custodians. There's no right or wrong, it's just part of life. PAUL J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 I Sadly I do know COLLECTORS who are unscrupulous and put photographs of anonymous soldiers with medals along with cap badges and crucifixes and all manner of other artifacts. Fake scrolls stained with tea and all fixed into an old frame and sold as original. This is despicable; not only is it fraud, it robs soldiers of their true identities as, in years to come, no one will know the truth - and all for the sake of a few extra pounds. Likewise, the habit of breaking up groups of medals, documents and photographs which have been together for 90 years - just because a medal collector may not want the paperwork and an ephemera dealer won't want the medals. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> These people are NOT Collectors,they are fraudsters,in fact criminals as they are fraudulently passing goods off as something they are not. & most collectors I know & have known for the past 45 years would not dream of removing related ephemera from groups.more the opposite & pay over the odds to ensure they get it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Word of warning. "she said that her children and her grandchildren were 'not in the slightest bit interested' in them" NOT always the case, & worth checking with the family. From my own experience the elderly, either through illness or lack of understanding, have a mistaken view of the family's feelings. My mother blithely, out of the blue, on a visit to Helston, offered my grandfather's plaque & medal to the local museum. And he is my blood relation, not hers. The Curator saw my face and tactfully changed the subject. She was surprised when I said I was interested!!! Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 A very well known medal collector has an MM group won by a relative of mine. He says he will let me have it... eventually! Cheers, Taff <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I take it you are not holding your breath Taff. I am sorry for you as the group should be with your family. Roland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb95 Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Once I'm dead I don't care what happens to my medals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Once I'm dead I don't care what happens to my medals Very true.........you certainly wont be able to take them with you. From some of the comments made here anyone would think medal collectors are on par with drug dealers and muggers! By calling all those people who sell medals for profit (or collect for investment), you call not only all the major auction houses of london, members of the House of Lords and several of the most influential Chinese and Japanese business men of the world. Please put this into perspective. If the veterans were resurrrected do you think the first thing on their mind would be where their medals are? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Nice story which relates to users of this forum. At one of our initial Black cCountry fForum meetings it came to light that one of the members- Doug Lewis- had a single medal to a Wolverhampton guy and another member - Clive -had a broken pair to same guy! Without any hesitation Doug offered the single medal to Clive to complete the group! Wonderful gesture and without the Forum would have never happened. Well done all concerned! Will post some pics of the medals etc sometime soon. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Nice story which relates to users of this forum. At one of our initial Black cCountry fForum meetings it came to light that one of the members- Doug Lewis- had a single medal to a Wolverhampton guy and another member - Clive -had a broken pair to same guy! Without any hesitation Doug offered the single medal to Clive to complete the group! Wonderful gesture and without the Forum would have never happened. Well done all concerned! Will post some pics of the medals etc sometime soon. Tony <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Excellent , as it should be . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Hello at least a collector values the medal - whether it be for the montary value or for what it represents better to belong to some one who wants them - for what ever reason Ian (collector and researcher) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 When I started collecting medals over 40 years ago my Grandmother called then dead mans gains-she incidently had 3 very nice groups locked up in a safe where they never saw the light of day. I bought from markets, junk shops and auction rooms and to be honest wasn't at all concerned how they got there, the point was they were, and they were for sale. The fact is they are on sale in the public domain and highly collectable. Are we now going to apply the give back approach with wedding rings and other personal items, how about sports awards that have been sold and now the family want them back? Medals have a monetary worth, and seeing the silly figures some groups go for would you give them back if you had spent thousands on collecting them, I think you might question that decision quite hard. It is up to the individual collectors as to what they do. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 . Are we now going to apply the give back approach with wedding rings and other personal items, how about sports awards that have been sold and now the family want them back? Rob <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If the family can trace them then they should be allowed to buy them back if they so wish.If i owned a medal group and i knew the family were sad as to it not being in the family then i would feel very uncomfortable. A good point : If i owned your , or any medal collectors , family medals and you knew i had them how would you feel if i said i was not going to sell. Roland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Very true.........you certainly wont be able to take them with you. From some of the comments made here anyone would think medal collectors are on par with drug dealers and muggers! By calling all those people who sell medals for profit (or collect for investment), you call not only all the major auction houses of london, members of the House of Lords and several of the most influential Chinese and Japanese business men of the world. Please put this into perspective. If the veterans were resurrrected do you think the first thing on their mind would be where their medals are? Steve. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> On the contary Steve there are medal collectors/dealers out there who are even worse than muggers and drug dealers and it would be nieve to think they dont excist. To some people money is the be all and end all and they dont care who or how bad they hurt to make the smallest amount of money, to them it's the actual " conning " of the deal the actual getting one over on someone that gives them their buzz. These people will do it with medals today and something else tomorrow they arent staed fast militaria men/women Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Parasites or custodians? I've seen and continue to see both. And I've seen real extremes from the disgraceful treatment of Stephen White's Grandfathers medal to complete strangers who've contacted me through the Death Plaques site and offered plaques to reunite groups for little monetary gain. I see all shades of human nature. Some of it makes you smile and feel proud, at other times it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth. C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Since Derek mentions Death Plaques can I add a personal story and my view today. I can remember my Father throwing out his Two Brothers' Death Plaques as rubbish in the 1960's.(I have their Trios).For me,now, to be able to reunite the Plaques with the Medals would be nice and I am sure the Medals would be more valuable with the Plaques,should I or my Family wish to sell them in the future. I have no idea what happened to the Plaques other than they went in the Dustbin.It is perfectly possible,therefore,that they are now held by a Collector(to be honest I think they are probably at the bottom of some long closed Council Landfill Site). If,however,they are in the hands of a Collector how can I complain as my Father had no desire to hang on to the Plaques.Equally a Collector,if in possession of the Plaques,could argue that I should hand over the Medals as my Father had little interest in his late Brothers' effects. The Plaques are to John and George Souness and if anyone has them I don't want them back but you have no chance of getting the Medals . George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Nigel, The problem is its called 'business' and its legal. There always have been people swindling antiques out of each other. For example in Nepal dealers from central India travel out there to buy medals from Ghurkhas which they sell on to rich western collectors. I dont agree with that because they pay pence for the medals from people who have a lot less than anyone here in the UK. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGEL Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Nigel, The problem is its called 'business' and its legal. There always have been people swindling antiques out of each other. For example in Nepal dealers from central India travel out there to buy medals from Ghurkhas which they sell on to rich western collectors. I dont agree with that because they pay pence for the medals from people who have a lot less than anyone here in the UK. Steve. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know exactly what it is cause i was once part of it not with medals but furniture and your right it is legal and any dealer i met would sell his granny for tuppence if he could get a buyer, so to make a difference between a trader in drugs and a trader in ??????? is wrong there is no difference except perhaps the drug dealer wont have to lie through his teeth to sell his wares. Perhaps the drug dealer may be seen as a more honest person even though his merchantdise is illegal. But anyway nobody forces anybody to buy anything so if someone buys something other than brand new stock then they only have theirselves to blame if it turns out to be a dud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludovica Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 I'm not a collector, (though I own the duo of my QMAAC Grandmother). I have no objections to serious collectors who do a lot of research on the individuals and respond to enquiries. I'd rather someone like that had them than an uncaring relation who dumps them in favour of a new sitting room rug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest C729LEE Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Forum As a collector of many years, I have received medals from many sources.Swaps as a kid, found in a builders skip (2 plaques - 1 a lincs 01/07/16 and a WW1 casualty pair with sons WW2 entitlement), friends at work who heard of my interest, a hard up old man (divorced at 69 with a greedy wife having to sell his home. He wore his medals on Remembrance Sunday, both in my collection.) Rip off dealers and reasonable dealers alike, family friends, even a chap with whom I served in the Army. Now any of these people can come to me, I have kept them in the know of their medals whereabouts, i.e. on my study wall and glass cases. I have told them all that their items are safe and can be viewed by themselves or relations. I am the custodian of a piece of their history. They will be cared for, researched, and cherished. I do occasionally trade dealer bought items, but only to buy a nicer group. One chap came up to me in a pub and asked if I bought medals, I knew the guy from school days - he remembered my interest - I told him of course. Fifteen minutes later he turned up with his Grandfather's BWM/VM to the Lincs. (served 2nd, 7th, 6th, 10th, and 6th again) I asked how much he would take. £20 is fine. He proceeded to drink the £20 which lasted about half an hour. With this sort of thing happening is there any wonder there are a few cowboys out there. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonny956 Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Comparing medal collectors/dealers to 'muggers and drug dealers'........? I think most right minded people on a Forum such as this would agree that this is a little extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Yes I agree, the impact of modern day medal collectors on todays society certainly is very limited Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonny956 Posted 21 November , 2005 Share Posted 21 November , 2005 Shades of standing around on street corners, the opening of a trench coat and the mumbled......"here guv'nor........wanna buy a medal"? LOL Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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