Jerrymurland Posted 12 November , 2005 Share Posted 12 November , 2005 I'm looking for information about this battalion, in particular their actions on July 1st 1916. Trying to track down the unit war diary but wondering if there is anything of note anywhere else. A great Uncle, Capt. C.H. Murland was badly wounded on July 1st, family legend has it that he was 'on the wire' most of that day and was only brought in after dark. He was one of the few surviving officers of the battalion when the roll was finally taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 12 November , 2005 Share Posted 12 November , 2005 Jerry - I replied to this post with a link to the war diary last week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 12 November , 2005 Share Posted 12 November , 2005 You may have missed it .. anyway here's the relevant link. Scroll through and you will come to the war diary link. Best wishes Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 12 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2005 There is no mention of my Gt. Uncle in the casualties list on your site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 12 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2005 This one might be of interest also: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 12 November , 2005 Share Posted 12 November , 2005 Was your Great Uncle called Charlie Murland? If so, I have some references to him (or someone I'm pretty sure is him) in letters from one of his colleagues. Swizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 12 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2005 War diary not helpful then! No real mention of the July 1st action, understandable in the circumstances. Have another cutting that might be of interest: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 12 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2005 Yes, he was known as Charlie Murland. love to see what you have got. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 12 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2005 No real mention of the 1st July action? It's the actual war diary for 1st July! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, didn't mean that! No mention of my man in it which was disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 12 November , 2005 Share Posted 12 November , 2005 Jerry, I'll have a look through the information I have and get back to you - I don't have time to do this today though. The letters I have transcriptions of were written by Captain James Davidson, who features in the Honour Roll you posted. He was killed on 1 July 1916. Swizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 14 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Swizz, thought you might be interested in this cutting of Col Savage inspecting the 13th Battalion after the war, Charlie Murland Behind him. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Jerry, That's an interesting cutting, thanks for posting it. You might know that the Newcastle memorial has been moved since then. Here is the stuff about Charlie Murland. These are extracts from the letters of Captain James Davidson of Bangor, County Down. He started out in the 13th Rifles before moving to the Brigade Machine Gun Corps. As I mentioned before, he was killed on 1 July 1916. I was given a transcription of these letters some time ago, but I should point out that the originals are available in PRONI - the number for the Davidson family collection is D/3642. I'm going to divide these up by month to make it clearer! July 1915 SOUTH CAMP, SEAFORD, SUSSEX 12/7/15 The men have been given a holiday today with the exception of a bathing parade at 11 am which is just over & Char. M. & I are going to motor over to Eastbourne after lunch. Weather again sunny & bright but wind still blowing hard so that everything is dusty & rather unpleasant. SEAFORD, SUSSEX 16/7/15 We are having the most abominable weather at present - rain almost every day & quite cold - I should quite enjoy a fire today for everything is so damp & miserable. The little car is going all right but I have had little opportunity of using it so far, as weather has been so bad. Hope it will clear for week end. I expect Charley & I will go for a run to Brighton or Eastbourne on Sunday. It is now very hard to get leave to be away from camp for a night - we have to put our names in a book & this has to go before the C.O. for approval, who is not a bit liberal in this or indeed anything for that matter. 13th R. IR. RIFLES, SEAFORD 20/7/15 Chas. M. & I went over to Eastbourne on Sunday afternoon & stayed there for dinner. We had a run in the car first through a very quaint old village called Alfriston where there is a celebrated old inn absolutely crammed with beautiful old furniture - you would have enjoyed seeing it. The weather was lovely & we greatly enjoyed the run. 13th BATT. R. IR. RIFLES, SEAFORD 26/7/15 Jessie Smyth & Miss Hall are in Seaford for a few days. Chas. M. & I are to dine with them & Teddie S. tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 August 1915 13th ROYAL IRISH RIFLES, SEAFORD 9/8/15 Chas. Murland & I decided on Sat. to motor up to town, as we found we could get leave till Sunday evening, & had a most enjoyable run as far as Croydon where a tram going in the opposite direction switched over onto the right hand tracks without any warning & although I pulled up dead, crushed me between it & a motor bus standing at the curb with the result that the front axle was badly bent, steering gear injured, mudguards crumpled up & various smaller injuries. In spite of all I was able to drive the car on to town slowly & there left it in a good garage for repair. The insurance Co. will of course have to bear the expense but it is very annoying as it means doing without the car for at any rate 2 weeks as I could not get leave to go & drive it down sooner. I fancy the tramway Co. will have to pay as the motor man could have avoided the accident had he applied the brakes properly but he seemed to lose his head. Chas. & I quite enjoyed the wee spree in town & came back Sunday evening. Weather here has been very sultry & oppressive during the past few days - feels like thunder. 13th R.IR.RIFLES, SOUTH CAMP, SEAFORD 19/8/15 Was glad to get Nightingale's address & hope to go & see him on Sat. as the Delage is to ready & I am arranging to go up on Sat. with C.M. & drive back on Sunday. Will be very glad to have it back again as without some kind of motor vehicle one is practically tied to the Camp all week & it is most monotonous. 13th ROYAL IRISH RIFLES, SEAFORD 23/8/15 I went up to town with C.M. on Sat. & motored back in the Delage yest. evening The Garage people made a good job of the repairs & I was very satisfied with the way in which they carried out their work. The car is going just as well as ever. We did not start from London till about 4 PM which was really too late, as evenings are now so short & we had the bad luck to puncture while we were still in the suburbs, with the result that it was quite dark before we were many miles on our journey. This of course made going very slow as strong head lights are not allowed over here & then we had to break the journey about half way for some supper the result being that we did not arrive in camp till nearly 1 am - just imagine almost 6 hours to do a little over 65 miles. It was most difficult also to find the way to cross roads & we frequently had to get out & strike matches to see the names on Sign Posts. We have quite made up our minds to stick to the train for any future journeys to town. It is much too tiring to drive such a long way without good headlights. We were just turning in after getting back to Camp when the bugles all round the camp sounded the Fire Alarm when of course everyone has to turn out at the double. There was a huge blaze in the sky about a mile from here & as my Co.y is at present on fire duty I took a Platoon off at once to the scene of the fire with fire buckets followed by Major McLean with the whole of A Coy who have Fire Picket duty. We found a large farm yard near Divisional Headquarters, where a number of horses were stabled, blazing & a number of other troops were already on the scene. We formed chains of men to pass the buckets of water & kept the fire from spreading till the local fire brigade with proper hoses arrived & put it out but unfortunately no one was in time to get out all the horses & 10 poor brutes were burnt to death. Two of them succeeded in getting clear but dropped dead outside & it was a very sad sight to see them. IT is of course at present not known how the fire occurred but some are inclined to think that it was not accidental. We got back to Camp about 2-30 am & as you can imagine after the long drive I was very tired - must get off to bed soon & try to make up for it - I feel as if I could sleep for a week at present particularly as we have had a long day of it on the range in a baking hot sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 September 1915 13th ROYAL IRISH RIFLES, SEAFORD 1/9/15 We have all been busy getting packed up & sending off heavy baggage & I have also been looking after Gerard's & Charlie's belongings. The latter is at present away on a course at Ongar Essex. GUADALOUPE BARRACKS, BORDON 26/9/15 Poor Charlie Murland has got a bad throat which the Dr. thinks looks rather diptheretic & he has gone off to hospital. Hope this won't turn out to be the case - it would be such bad luck for him to get laid up now when we are almost on the point of leaving. GUADALOUPE BARRACKS, BORDON, HANTS 30/9/15 We hope Charlie Murland will be back from Hospital in a day or so. The Batt does not leave till Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 October 1915 GUADALOUPE BARRACKS, BORDON 1/10/15 Charlie M. not back yet but I hear it is not diptherea & that he will probably be back in time to go with the Batt. on Tuesday. 8th Oct. 1915 Charlie Murland unfortunately was not able to come out with us but I do hope it will be possible for him to join us as soon as he is better. 16th October 1915 No news of Charlie Murland. 28th Oct. 1915 Had a note from C. Murland. He is still at home but hopes to join us soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 There are a few more bits and pieces but I've run out of time now - will post them later tonight. Swizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 14 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2005 Thanks mate, I really appreciate your time and effort. To get some personal pieces like this about Charlie is great. The illness he had, prevented him from leaving with the battalion and he was in hospital for a while. I have a letter of his requesting to be posted back to the 13th Batt. The War office agreed - file in the PRO most useful here. Unfortunately the nature of his wounds prevented him from further active service, or fortunately, depending which way you view it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2005 Share Posted 14 November , 2005 No problem - I like to believe in Forum karma - ie people have helped me with things in the past so if I have something which someone else is looking for, I try and post it! Its the little personal stories etc which make the subject of the First World War come alive for me and I hope you enjoy these ones too. Here are the rest of the references: November 1915 3 Nov. 1915 He (Gerard Matthew - also with Newcastle connections) had heard from Chas. M. within the last day or so & told me that the latter had been given another months leave as his throat was still giving trouble. 12 November 1915 We heard yesterday that Charlie M. has been granted another 3 months leave so he must be a good deal worse than he imagined. It is unfortunate for him and also the Battalion but he will at least miss most of the Winter out here which is something to be thankful for. May 1916 21 May 1916 Charles Murland arrived out here on Friday and has joined the 13th again. He stayed with us till today and as you can guess we were all very delighted to have him. Swizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 17 November , 2005 Share Posted 17 November , 2005 Jerry, It came to me this morning that I might have something else about Charlie Murland - and I was right! These are from the letters of Lieutenant AC Herdman, an officer in the 13th RIR: Hdqrs Trenches 2nd July 1916 My dearest Mother, Just a note to tell you in spite of all I am alright, not a touch – Also to say I have gone through Hell! – with the finest Div, the British Army has ever seen. As we all said they would do the right thing when the time came + yesterday they did a feat that will go down in History. I don’t know if you have heard yet, but poor Murland, Upritchard, H. Smyth, Rodgers + many others have branded for ever their names in Britains (sic) Roll of Heroes. Thank God! Matthew, Findley + Moore are only slightly wounded. C (?) Ewart, J (?) Haughton, oh! but you will see plenty of this when the lists come out. I don’t really think I can write any more at present, everyone in spite of all are cheery, will write later when I get some sleep. Much love Do. Herrisarrt (?) 6th July 1916 My dearest Mother, The calm after the storm… The whole Bdge or what is left are here. I went to my Battn the other day Murland was got wounded, but no hope of Dermot + the others. No word of Rex Neill, nobody seems to have seen him at all + I’m sorry. I went to the Hospital with Col Packenham to see a Segt of Rex’s Cy but he had just been evacuated. I must say that Hospital nearly did for me after all the stories I heard about their wonderful deeds. Up to the night of the 4th we were sending out parties to bring in wounded some we got after 3 ½ days. But they came in smiling, hard chaps. I am afraid the 13th had the worst casualties. They lost 2 officers (Marshall + Wright), 2 warrant officers + 50 men killed + wounded by 1 shell on their way to the trenches. … Much love, Do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 17 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2005 thanks mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 No problem - Herdman's letters seem to fit in with your family story - ie that Murland was got after dark. This might explain why Herdman initially thought he was dead. Swizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 18 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Presumably Herdman went out with the Battalion and was one of the only surviving officers. Yes I agree with you, his letters would seem to support the family story, Charlie I imagine was brought out and then to a CCS somewhere. Hence the length of time it took for the information about his survival to reach the Battalion. Are these letters at PRONI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carroll Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 I'm not sure if i am posting this in the correct section. Both my Great grandfathers served with the Royal Irish Rifles and both were killed. The question i have is how am i able to find out where they died. The only information i have on them is their Military no's and the dates they died and i am interested to find out more about the men themselves and how i would start this task. Rifleman 9087 William John Crainey 2nd Batt Royal Irish Rifles Killed 11/11/1914 Rifleman 11248 Henry Bell 2nd Batt Royal Irish Rifles Killed March 1918 Many thanks Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 18 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Carroll, I am presuming you have checked these dates with the CWCG Site, I have found that there can be a mismatch between the 'family' date and the official date. My next step would be to research where the 2nd Battalion would have been at the time of your GG/Grandfathers' deaths. A recent post from Desmond7 also answered a similar question, his reply included this: browse for Royal Ulster Rifles Museum website where you can download the histories of the Btns of the RI Rifles in WW1 (by Cyril Falls). I am sure there are plenty of Pals on the forum who can add to and improve on this advice. However you've got something to get started on. Happy researching. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carroll Posted 18 November , 2005 Share Posted 18 November , 2005 Hi Jerry, Thanks for the info, i will look into it. I'm not sure where this search will lead but at the end of the day any information i can get will be more than i have now. I have a question that you may be able to help me with. The photo that i have shows my great grand father wearing the uniform of a sargeant but he is listed as a rifleman on the cwgc site, would that have been a field commission? Thanks Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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