British P.O.W. attire

[BottsGreys]

I recently obtained a photo postcard of a British soldier taken while he was a P.O.W. in Germany. He is identified in period ink on reverse as a member of 2nd South Wales Borderers who died in captivity. Having collected vintage photographs for many years, the inscription looks "right as rain" to me, and his entry in CWGC confirms the information given. However, in looking at his uniform under a loupe, his cap badge appears to be in no way similar to that of the South Wales Borderers (however, it is too indistinct to describe in detail) and he has a cloth

title on his upper right sleeve of which I can't read entirely but ends in the letters "..UMBIA" (not ...UMBRIA). Is it possible that do to clothing shortages in the camps, he is wearing uniform pieces handed down (reissued) from other, possibly deceased, prisoners?

I don't know if this falls within anyone's expertise, but I was curious at least as to whether someone might have some information or even an opinion. Like I say, the written identification appears very much legit.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Chris

[Doug Johnson]

Chris,

As far as PoW uniforms are concerned almost anything goes. On arriving at a PoW reception camp he would have almost certainly be deloused which meant his clothing being removed form him and perhaps, but not always returned. In 1914 in Gustrow clothing was not returned to the individual. The reason apparently was that "any clothing was good enough for prisoners". This practice did cease. Later in the war prisoners were often kept working behind the lines for some weeks or months and were not issued with clothing. Their clothing was therefore rags when they were transferred to a camp. As they were new in camp they would not begin to receive clothing parcels for some time and borrowing from other prisoners was a regular occurance, usually one of the functions of the camp help committee who would also help with food as the basic rations were at starvation level and it was not possible to survive without the food parcels. Clothing for prisoners was stolen on occassions but not much in the way of uniforms as these were of little value on the black market. Boots were very desirable and some prisoners in the early part of the war were stripped of boots and greatcoats.

I have two photographs from Gustrow which have identical autographs on the back in identical handwriting. One is in highland dress (probably london Scottish) and the other in his proper regiment uniform (I can't remember which off hand but something like the Surrey Regiment) I can't make my mind up whether they are the same person or he accidently signed the wrong photograph!

Capt A Donaldson was put in solitary confinement for having two pairs of trousers!

I also have numerous photographs of various PoWs of the London Scottish. They have a variety of uniforms and one is in tartan trews which look like they were borrowed as all the other photographs of them are in plain trews when not in their grey kilts.

Presumably you have a name of this individual plus the name of the camp from the card. The CWGC should point to whether this individual was in the camp that the card was from. All the PoW graves were concentrated during the 1920's and a look at the cemetary details should say where they graves were collected from though not the place for that particular grave.

Doug

[BottsGreys]

Doug:

Thanks for your input--very informative and greatly appreciated. Here is my guy:

Name: EDWARDS, FRED

Initials: F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: South Wales Borderers

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 30

Date of Death: 29/10/1918

Service No: 25609

Additional information: Son of Llewellyn and Martha Edwards, of Brynnmawr; husband of Martha Edwards, of 277, King St., Brynmawr, Breconshire.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: V. J. 5.

Cemetery: NIEDERZWEHREN CEMETERY

The inscription states that he was at Schlitz-O-Hessen camp.

Regards,

Chris

[Guest Simon Bull]

Later in the war prisoners were often kept working behind the lines for some weeks or months and were not issued with clothing. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doug

I am very interested by this comment, as I am researching a man who is said to have died whilst a PoW but is commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial to the Missing, indicating, broadly, that he is believed to have died in the Salient.

Could I ask you what evidence you have to back up your statement (not that I doubt it for one moment, it is just that it would assist my research to know why you say this).

[Doug Johnson]

Simon,

There are several sources;

FO383 online index carries several references to reports regarding prisoners working close to the lines despite agreements to the contrary. Britain was apparently the bad boy in the agreements as the Germans wanted them further back as they had agreed with France. Germany however quite clearly totally ignored any agreements in the latter days. (the agreements were in terms of how many kilometers back they should be, 20 or 30 I think)

WO161 has reports from repatriated and escaped prisoners who were digging trenches, carrying munitions etc often under allied shell fire and reports that some were killed. I must have downloaded these reports so if you want I will locate the actual reports for you.

The AWMs online Red Cross Missing and Wounded Files seem to confirm the above reports as some are initially confirmed as PoW's by the Germans and then they are reported killed by the Germans with a later date and not in a PoW camp. Unfortunately I would not be able to locate these again as there is no way of searching for them and I did not record which ones they were. I happened on the references by chance whilst browsing the files. They make astonishing reading at times. (eg Harry Ross. There is a letter from him stating that he had been in the 1st AIF for two years of which he spent four and a half months in Gallipoli where he was wounded. He was sent back to Aus and discharged in 1916. He was not well and his doctor ordered him to take a sea cruise. He was on the SS Wairuna on voyage from Auckland to San Francisco when it was intercepted by the German raider Wolf. He then spent nearly a year couped up in the hold of the wolf until it arrived in Kiel when he was transferred to Gustrow and then to Parchim where he wrote the letter)

J P Rush's report in the IWM of which I have a copy relates the death of two Russians prisoners at Gustrow. Beaten to death for refusing to return to the front, building fortifications, from where they had escaped.

Some men taken prisoner did not survive beyond the front line. George Connes in his book describes the death of some of his comrades as they ran back towards the German rear. Killed by allied shells.

Pte McKenzie of the London Scottish was taken prisoner on the 1st Nov 1914. He was wounded and in a barn. In another barn were more wounded including Pte Ross of the London Scottish who was only slightly wounded. Pte Ross was taken away by the German soldiers and later the area was shelled. Pte McKenzie survived but the wounded in the other barn died when shells set it alight. This report is in WO161. What happened to Pte Ross is unknown but he is commemorated on a memorial with the date of death as 1st Nov 1914.

I hope this helps.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Simon,

Also chapter three of 'Prisoners of the Kaiser' by Richard van Emden.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Chris,

I can't find any reference to the camp so it must be a work camp attached to somewhere like Giessen. It feels like it is in the right area for where he died but I really have no idea where it is.

I read an officers report yesterday. He was wounded and by the time he reached a camp he was wearing almost nothing of his original uniform. Everything was borrowed and was a mixture of uniform and civilian clothes. Cpt Henderson who was with him had only a nightshirt.

Doug

[BottsGreys]

Doug:

Thanks again for sharing info and for checking your resources--very much appreciated.

Chris