The Western Front

[tonycad]

In 1915 the Germans established an experimental camp South of Spincourt, not far from Verdun, so that their engineers could test ideas for the use of concrete in their fortifications, and buildings to test concrete.

This was Camp Maguerre, named I believe after its commandant, and in 1916 the buildings were used as a rest area for their soldiers fighting at Verdun.

Parts of the concrete structures could be recognised as designs eventually going into field fortifcations.

The ones in the first photograph have fronts added on, hiding the war like nature of the buildings themselves.

Tony

[tonycad]

Sorry,.

The previous photograph is of various types of bunkers and fortified buildings in the woodlands of Camp Maguerre.

This is the photograph of buildings with the ornate fronts.

Tony

[tonycad]

Moving on from Camp Maguerre here is a German bunker in the Australian Memorial Park, near VC Corner Cemetry, which shows how the concrete was poured massively to create the structure.

[tonycad]

On one of my recent visits to the Salient, I noticed for the first time that some bunkers, not many but quite a few, were built of concrete blocks, reminiscent of those used in buildings today.

One wonders why?

To build them quickly, or perhaps less noisily than pouring concrete.

There are two such bunkers in Cronaert Wood.

Admittedly they have poured roofs.

Here is one of them.

Tony

[CROONAERT]

This was Camp Maguerre, named  I believe after its commandant, and in 1916 the buildings were used as a rest area for their soldiers fighting at Verdun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also known as "Village Negre" in the local area because of it's post WW1 inhabitation by Senegalese troops.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

This was Camp Maguerre, named  I believe after its commandant,

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You might be interested to know that Hauptmann Hans Maguerre (Royal Prussian Engineers) survived the war and spent WW2 as a spy for Canaris then ,later ,for the Soviets. "His" camp was used by the FFI during WW2.

Dave.

[Max Poilu]

There is a lot of info on concrete use in the book 'Pillboxes on the Western Front'.

[tonycad]

Giles,

Thank you the most interesting, additional information on Camp Maguerre, previusly unknown to me.

I have also included the following photograph.

This is for the times a massive structure, and I would imagine it would have easily been spotted in the barren landscape of the battlefield.

It shows no sign of damage, and I wonder why it was not targetted by the RGA heavies in the rear lines. Or did they, and miss!

Would someone confirm that this was 'Hitler's bunker, somewhere near Fromelles.

Tony

[Simon Furnell]

Thanks for the photos,Tony.

I can't remember which book it was,but i have seen a photo of a German Soldier,building a pillbox,using blocks,or bricks,in the Ypres area.

Block house is a term i remember from somewhere,so perhaps WW1 is where it came from,built of blocks,with a concrete jacket.

The quality of the work,with Concrete,had improved by WW2,without a doubt,as most of us know.

You are never far from a pillbox in Southern England,or many places around the coast of the UK,and it is much the same on the Channel coast of France.

When i was a kid,i used to play in some WW2 pillboxes,close to my home,which had been built as perimeter defences for an airfield.

They were steel re-inforced Concrete on the inside,very damp,and a bit tight for space,and local brick on the outside,with grass on the top.

It was bad enough when you clapped your hands,the noise.

Dread to think what it would have been like firing an MG,or rifle,inside it.

All the best.

Simon.

[CROONAERT]

Dread to think what it would have been like firing an MG,or rifle,inside it.

All the best.

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Probably a damn site better than being just outside it and in front when the said weapon was discharged!!!

Dave.

[Robert Dunlop]

I don't think blockhouse came from it's being built of blocks. It may have referred to the block-like shape. They were heavily fortified protective cover but were not used as pill-boxes or bunkers. Slits were used for observation purposes but the men would evacuate the blockhouse after the barrage had passed. They manned walls and other defensive positions outside the blockhouse.

There are many cases where Germans poured concrete into the interior of buildings and towers. The external appearance was left unchanged. The walls were significantly reinforced. Larger buildings, such as factories, might have fortified bunkers built inside them.

Robert

[cockney tone]

On the subject of blocks!

If you get the chance have a look at some of the blocks in the Bayenwald Trench system. Each one has a couple of pre drilled holes in which I am informed assited with carrying to and fro by placing a pole through and then could be used to bind them together when they were in situ with reinforced metal poles/rods.

Hope this makes some sense,

Regards,

Scottie.

[healdav]

Camp maguerre is the next to last place on my ten hour or so (depending on how long you gawp for) tour of the north of the St. Mihiel salient.

Quite amazing place and quite unknown to most people. Its quite difficult to find as it doesn't have too many signposts and you go into the fields and forest for so long you think you are lost.

When you get there there is a big car park, even for coaches (I'm usually alone or maybe a few locals out for a walk. I've never seen anyone else really looking around the place).

I was under the impression that Maguerre died in the 30s, but could be wrong. he used to go back to the camp for his holidays for many years. The locals apparently looked on him as a rather eccentric mascot.

The camp was used by the Maquis throughout WW2. After the war it was used as a gathering point for UXB and unused ammunition; hence the presence of the Senegalais.

If you want to find the place by yourself, take the road from Verdun north to Longuyon. It is to the west of the road. If you see the signs to 380mm gun site, you have gone too far. It is marked on some maps as Camp Maguerre, others as Camp des Negres and others just as a set of ruins in the forest!

[Simon Furnell]

Evening chaps.

Thought i would pass on this website,which i found ages ago and is very informative.

Pillbox study group,has loads of info,especially on WW2 boxes.

Well worth a look at,and one the sites that finally convinced my wife,that i was a bit of an anorak,which is something i had warned her about.

All the best.

Simon.

[tonycad]

With regard to the query above on Hitler's bunker.

There has been a reply in another forum on a similar thread.

Yes, it is Hitler's bunker, although whether or not he used it is another matter. He did serve in the general area.

Tony.

[healdav]

I should have said that the photo above of 'ornate fronts' is actually of Maguerre's house and command post.

[truthergw]

Block house is a term i remember from somewhere,so perhaps WW1 is where it came from,built of blocks,with a concrete jacket.

Simon.

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There were blockhouses in the Boer War made of a variety of materials including stone blocks and corrugated iron.

[mebu]

Answres to a few of the questions:

The Fromelles bunker shown is often called Hitlers bunker but it dates from after his time in the area. As for why the British artillery didn't hit it.....do we know how many there were around which were hit, and therefore cannot be photographed today?

The bunkers in Bayernwald were made of blocks which had holes cast in, not drilled in...they were made in Wervick, and brought up on light rail because this was easier than carrying aggregates and cement and casting them in-situ. The Germans could not make beams for the roof....the British borrowed the technology and in 1918 made pre-cast pillboxes with blocks and roof beams, many of these on western front but none survive in the salient, quite a few further south around Hazebrouck.

Similar British technology evident on the walls of Ypres, near Lillegate, the 2 Moir pill boxes, made in England and shipped to Belgium in pieces for erection on site. These used in Summer of 1918.

"Blockhouse" term dates from pre-war.

Hope this helps, can provide any further info/photos if anyone wants, Peter.

[tonycad]

Mebu,

Thank you for your post on the use of concrete blocks in the building of bunkers.

I knew there had to be a background to the use of the blocks, rather than the pouring of concrete.

As all other arms and materiel were subject to research and improvement, it is not surprising that a similar approach was adopted for bunkers.

What surprised me is the way the thinking developed on the use of the concrete blocks, and the ultimate I suppose was your example of pre-made, pre-fabricated,

bunkers in England. The original 'flat pack'.

Whatever the bunker, the logistics must have been incredible, let alone building them when within sight and sound of the enemy.

Thank you again.

Tony

[healdav]

"Whatever the bunker, the logistics must have been incredible, let alone building them when within sight and sound of the enemy."

No this is something which intrigues me and I have nver got an answer on just how they did it.

In Bois le Pretre that trenches are about 25 metres apart and yet the Germans managed to build concrete lookout and machine gun posts right into the front wall of the front tline (and long concrete firing steps as well). How on earth did they do it? The places I know show no signs of having been poured elsewhere and then erected (and that would have been a game in itself in full view of the French. And in any case, the roof is very definitely poured concrete.

[truthergw]

"Whatever the bunker, the logistics must have been incredible, let alone building them when within sight and sound of the enemy."

No this is something which intrigues me and I have nver got an answer on just how they did it.

.............

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According to the Official History 1917, the early stages of the' Hindenburg Line'

were built using Russian prisoners, the later stages used Belgian conscripts and German troops. Specialist German companies were employed and they brought their highly skilled workmen into the line. Much of the formwork was prefabricated in the rear. There was a great deal of standardisation. Doors, e.g. were mass produced. I have a bit of experience in working with concrete and think that the main problem would be trying to do the work quietly in a frontline trench. The 'Hindenburg Line' of course, was made miles to the rear and was known about long before the Germans fell back to it.

[healdav]

It would be relatively easy in some areas where the front lines were way apart. But what about where, as in my area, they are 25 metres apart. You could hardly call over, 'We're just going to pour some concrete and my mother's sent me a cake. I'll toss it over if you promise not to shoot'.

[truthergw]

It would be relatively easy in some areas where the front lines were way apart. But what about where, as in my area, they are 25 metres apart. You could hardly call over, 'We're just going to pour some concrete and my mother's sent me a cake. I'll toss it over if you promise not to shoot'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't want to be the ganger on the job but the concrete could be made well back from the line and brought up in containers on mens' backs.There need be no more noise in pouring it than would be made putting up wire and hammering pickets. If the forms were prefabricated in the rear, they could be assembled and braced using screw jacks. German engineers given the task of making concrete structures quietly would soon think up a method and produce the equipment. As would the RE on our side if the need arose.

[Guest Jimmy Knacky]

"Whatever the bunker, the logistics must have been incredible, let alone building them when within sight and sound of the enemy."

No this is something which intrigues me and I have nver got an answer on just how they did it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well its obvious the officers never built it.........

Use your imagination bonny lad.........

The prisoners built it............

"Whatever the bunker, the logistics must have been incredible, let alone building them when within sight and sound of the enemy."

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Robert Dunlop]

Healdav, it was not uncommon for noisy engineering operations to be carried out without incident. I was reminded of this when skim-reading the 'History of the New Zealand Engineers'. I doubt there was any need to mix the concrete 'off-site' and carry it forward. This would have been a hugely laborious process, given that the weight of the dry ingredients is further increased with the addition of water. Worse still, the arrival of small amounts of concrete at highly irregular intervals (dictated by the vagaries of carrying the stuff forward through trenches, etc) would have seriously threatened the integrity of the finished product.

It is highly unlikely that prisoners would have been used for such a project close to the front lines. For one thing, it was outlawed. A different story when constructing something like the Siegfried Stellung well behind the German lines.

Robert