88 years after - touring the Gaza-BeerSheba front

[wroclaw]

Thanks for the Map Chris,

Can you help with a map or veiw of the area north of Beersheba.

We are having a discussion on another webb site about what could be seen from the area of Tel el Sakaty and Tel um Butein looking south west to the charge area of the attack on Beerseba and the 4th LH Bde.

Now the area would have charged a lot by now but could someone on Tel el Sakaty seen passed the Tel el Saba to the Turkish trenches.

Can the map you have also include spot hights to better check.

Cheers

S.B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This fringe of a map my lousy scanner produced is taken from R.M.P Preston's "The Desert Mounted corps". It shows Tel el Sakati and Bir el Sakati (the well is actually south of the hill not north of it) and its position dominating the Hebron road. The topography the way it is shown here, is hopelessly wrong, mostly since they used the change of color as referring to change of hight and being in wide intervals the real nuances of the terrain, influencing the way things developed, are not seen.

The way I saw it, Tel a Sakati is nothing more of a mound – much like those you could see all over England and Wales (remains of the moat and bailey fortresses) only slightly wider. It was that important since it was the only natural redoubt in the plain, and also dominating both the Hebron road (which it still does) and the precious water. It seemed to me it couldn’t have offer any notable advantage apart from that. People who knew the place and story better then me, had indeed mentioned Tel el Sakati would be some of a disappointment for visitors who read about it prior to their visit.

[wroclaw]

Mate,

Can you answer my question above.

Does your map/panaramas show the veiw from the North looking south?

Thanks for any on the spot insight you have there in Israil.

Cheers

S.B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The picture of Tel el Sakati I posted at the beginning of the thread is from The Tel looking south. Tel a Sab'a should be at its far right or outside the right margin. Tel a sab'a could be seen from there as far as I remember, but only slightly. I'll have to scan the modern 1:50'000 map for some more accurate details, and it could be done tomorrow….

For a better look south, this is the full panorama I didn’t use since its left was in poor quality.

[wroclaw]

This picture shows the real importance of Tel el Sakati – dominating the Hebron road in front of a bottle neck created by the Hebron mountains and a main junction (represented by the big MacDonald's "M").

[stevenbecker]

Many thanks mate,

Your photos and map gives me the impresion that you possibly couldn't see south west towards the area south of Tell el Saba.

Would that be right as I need your expert knowage to confirm if anyone on top of the Tel el Sakety could see passed the Tell el Saba towards the charge area of the 4th LH Bde and the Turkish defences where they fought.

I know that may beyound what you have but would like your impressions of that veiw south west from Tell el Sakay.

Thanks again for your valuble input.

S.B

[Ozzie]

Wroclaw, Steve has said it all, these are great.

Now can you name the two hills I have marked to I can look at a map agaisnt this photo please.

[Chris Henschke]

Steve,

Sorry, I didn't see your request for the map portion that covers the Tel el Sakaty - Tel um Butein area until now.

Here it is.

According to this map, the distance from Tel el Sakaty to Tel el Saba is almost exactly 4 miles.

The spot elevation for Tel el Sakaty is 1170 feet

The spot elevation for Tel el Saba is 1007 feet

I doubt very much that there would be intervisability past Tel el Saba.

Chris Henschke

[wroclaw]

Wroclaw, Steve has said it all, these are great.

Now can you name the two hills I have marked to I can look at a map agaisnt this photo please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On a second look, I see the panorama is facing about south-east in its central part. The point on the left is nearly straight east of Sukati being some peak on the north-south ridge where the settlement of "Hura" is now partly seen. The peak further right is probably point 413, being nearly south of Sukati, slightly to the east. Its the highest point in the ridge, and on a careful look on a modern map (I cannot scan for now), the western slopes of this ridge seems to fully hide Tel A Saba'a, which should have been seen a little to right of that peak. This point is about the area squarred by the digits 11-12-17-18, south east of Sukati.

[CROONAERT]

Beersheba - Hill 1070 - Ras Hablein - Tel El Saba area

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris.

Could I ask you which edition of the "Beersheba Road Map" your extracts are from, please?

Thanks,

Dave.

[stevenbecker]

Many thanks mate,

Your map and detail makes it clear that no soldier sitting on top of the Sakaty hill could ever see south east passed the Tel Saba into the charge area of the 4th LHR Bde as it attacked the Turkish works later in the afternoon of the 31st Oct 1917.

The reason for asking was to question the discription given in the book by a soldier of the 5th LHR who when his Regt captured tell el Sakaty around midday to 1 PM that day was part of a detail in an OP to watch the Hebron road north for turkish reinforcements.

He claims that he could see south to the charge area and watched the charge, which goes against all the laws of terrain and distance.

Now he claims only he climbed a hill after the capture of Sakaty but does make it plane it was the Sakaty hill, but are there any other hills around Sakaty that you could climb to see that area.

The map doesn't give any that I can see but your on the spot knowage would be a help.

Thanks again for the hard work

S,B

[Ozzie]

I think, Steve please correct if I'm wrong, that the line of sight we are after is as marked. Would it be possible to see any of the marked area from Tel el Sakaty?

Specially the end bits.

Cheers

Kim

[stevenbecker]

Yes Kim,

I think they formed up around point 1030 on your map and the Turkish defences appear near where your other mark is.

You can see why we disputed his claim all this time, and the detail at some six miles he mentions seeing.

But its open to all to make coment on as I have no special knowage then the known sourses on this.

Cheers

S.B

[Nick]

Wroclaw,

My great uncle was killed at Khulweilfe on 4th November 1917 and seeing your photos of this area has given me some wonderful imagery of the region. I have posted links to this page to all my family (not that they'll be interested ).

Thank you for sharing them with us, it is very much appreciated.

If you have any others of Khulweilfe I'd love to see them, either on or off list.

Regards

Nick

[wroclaw]

I think, Steve please correct if I'm wrong, that the line of sight we are after  is as marked. Would it be possible to see any of the marked area from Tel el Sakaty?

Specially the end bits.

Cheers

Kim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just spoke to Mr. A. Navon, a man who lived most his life near by (on the slopes of Khuleife) and is one of the heads of the local Great War legacy association (and the head of a local museum and the museum for Bedouin culture). He told me the back in 1917 Tel Beersheba could have well been seen from tell Sukati. It is still seen, but only slightly since the hills in between are now built and wooded.

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

I just spoke to Mr. A. Navon, a man who lived most his life near by (on the slopes of Khuleife) and is one of the heads of the local Great War legacy association (and the head of a local museum and the museum for Bedouin culture). He told me the back in 1917 Tel Beersheba could have well been seen from tell Sukati. It is still seen, but only slightly since the hills in between are now built and wooded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wroclaw

G'day mate

First I want to say thank you very much for all your wonderful pix and commentary. It has added a lot of colour to my understanding of the area. Actually, it has done more than that, it has put it on a new level altogether. Of that I am deeply thankful.

I have no problem with what you have said. The area inhabited by the Hebron Road from Tel el Sukati and Beersheba looks almost as flat as a pancake. I expect the vision would only be blured by distance and time of day.

I believe the question both Steve and Kim are asking has more to do with the vision at dusk in a southerly direction beyond Bir Abu Salim Igrieg, a distance of six kilometres south. At dusk, would a person at Tel el Sukati be able to see two 400 metre lines of horsemen galloping towards the trenches at Berrsheba which were some 3 km south east of Beersheba?

Thanks mate

Bill

[wroclaw]

Wroclaw

G'day mate

First I want to say thank you very much for all your wonderful pix and commentary. It has added a lot of colour to my understanding of the area. Actually, it has done more than that, it has put it on a new level altogether. Of that I am deeply thankful.

I have no problem with what you have said. The area inhabited by the Hebron Road from Tel el Sukati and Beersheba looks almost as flat as a pancake. I expect the vision would only be blured by distance and time of day.

I believe the question both Steve and Kim are asking has more to do with the vision at dusk in a southerly direction beyond Bir Abu Salim Igrieg, a distance of six kilometres south. At dusk, would a person at Tel el Sukati be able to see two 400 metre lines of horsemen galloping towards the trenches at Berrsheba which were some 3 km south east of Beersheba?

Thanks mate

Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This questioned could be getting any closer to being solved by visiting the place today… The whole environment had changed from arid nearly unpopulated area, into an urban centre with heavy industries, including petrochemical, in the near vicinity which mean that the visibility conditions of 1917 could not be deduced from the situation today. It is quite tempting to say "yes" but then I have no knowledge as for the optical accessories the Turks had. Even if you get some report from times closer to 1917 about visibility in dusk, it would not be the bottom line since Oct.-Nov. are non stable in the weather conditions which change drastically.

Regards

[Ozzie]

I wonder if, although we have very strong sunlight in Oz, a comparision might be drawn from....... distance seen from a hill in the outback at dusk? With and without glasses.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Kim

[egbert]

Wroclaw

G'day mate

First I want to say thank you very much for all your wonderful pix and commentary. It has added a lot of colour to my understanding of the area. Actually, it has done more than that, it has put it on a new level altogether. Of that I am deeply thankful.

I have no problem with what you have said. The area inhabited by the Hebron Road from Tel el Sukati and Beersheba looks almost as flat as a pancake. I expect the vision would only be blured by distance and time of day.

I believe the question both Steve and Kim are asking has more to do with the vision at dusk in a southerly direction beyond Bir Abu Salim Igrieg, a distance of six kilometres south. At dusk, would a person at Tel el Sukati be able to see two 400 metre lines of horsemen galloping towards the trenches at Berrsheba which were some 3 km south east of Beersheba?

Thanks mate

Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Bill,

on the lighthorse-aussi-forum, you and Steve got pretty fired up on "Idriess & Beersheba - fact or fanciful".

From reading the diary pages, his position seems very vague. Several different positions have been suggested.

If his position has not been agreed, the range of view from any individual position seems to be unimportant.

Has the Aussie forum reached a decision?

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Hi Bill,

on the lighthorse-aussi-forum, you and Steve got pretty fired up on "Idriess & Beersheba - fact or fanciful".

G'day Egbert

Just to clarify things a tad bit, Steve and I were not fired up with each other - we agreed with each other.

From reading the diary pages, his position seems very vague. Several different positions have been suggested.

If his position has not been agreed, the range of view from any individual position seems to be unimportant.

Has the Aussie forum reached a decision?

The resolution was quite simple. I went to the Idriess Diary, copied the relevant entry and posted it.

Pix of the Idriess diary entry for 2 November 1917 is at:

http://josephus83.tripod.com/alha/

I have also posted a comparison between the entry from the Desert Column and the Idriess Diary. You can see this in the first post at:

http://www.lighthorse.org.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1829

The rest is all wash up with some dross mixed in between the actual content.

Long story short - Idriess wrote then entry in the Desert Column after reading of the event elsewhere and created a thrilling story. In contrast, Idriess was with his regiment, the 5th LHR making sure the Turks could not reinforce Beersheba from Hebron. From the excellent photogrpahs provided by Wroclaw and through examination of topographical maps, there was no way that Idriess could have seen the events recorded in the Desert Column. His personal diary confirms this.

Cheers

Bill

Edited 29 November , 2005 by Bill Woerlee

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes its the problem now days when we use sourses that were written some 50 to 70 years ago.

The book the "Desert Column" bv Ion Idriess is clearly a fiction book but was written from the man's personal diaries as a bases of that story.

He/ others, claim to have perfert knowage of what was going on around them and he appears to see all the battle in detail.

Now you can uses types of sourses if you want to but be aware that when you do they should be cross references to their stories.

This is not the first time we have double checked books written by vetern's. I remember rereading Capt Dunn's book to check where he was with the maps and know details and he's not the only one.

Its good to double check him like I also did to Herr Junger's books.

Cheers

S.B

[grantsmil]

Just to add to the views around Beersheba, here is a photograph from 1917.

Perhaps someone can assist in identifying where it may have been taken, I seem to have misplace my Beersheba map.

[Ozzie]

I think it was this one that doesn't show up on this thread anymore. It was put up by Chris.

Edited 13 December , 2005 by Ozzie

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Having looked at a few maps and photo's around Beersheba over the last few months your photo bears no relation to those I've seen of Beersheba. But most od those were taken from the south looking north or from the east looking west

It could be taken from the North looking South-West to the town and open areas on the western side of Beersheba but the small hights don't appear on this photo to confirm exactly.

The major hight to the South-East can not be seen so I can find no references to confirm the photo.

The buildings don't appear like the ones I've seen of Beersheba but those photos were taken from the South looking north so that could be why I don't see the points I've seen before.

Sorry but I don't reconize the area of the photo.

Cheers

S.B

[Chris Henschke]

The shadows seem fairly long.

Early morning - or late afternoon.

Beersheba Latitude is approx 31 Degrees 14' North.

Grant, I can email you a section of my map.

Chris Henschke

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Grant

G'day mate

Just to add to the views around Beersheba, here is a photograph from 1917.

Perhaps someone can assist in identifying where it may have been taken, I seem to have misplace my Beersheba map.

Yeah, it is a real difficult one to place until one sees the buildings and places them in perspective.

Here is your pic with a building circled.

We then find a pic taken on the same day of the same building close up.

We can see that the pic has been taken from the east and is looking west into the town. The pic appears to be about 3-4 km out of town. The dark patches in the middle of your pic appears to be fresh earth works - possibly trenches.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Bill

[wroclaw]

Just to add to the views around Beersheba, here is a photograph from 1917.

Perhaps someone can assist in identifying where it may have been taken, I seem to have misplace my Beersheba map.

Seems like a picture taken from north east of town, with the train station on the right and mosque at the left. Thats about the only edge of town which had a large building far from the cluster of the other buildings.

We then find a pic taken on the same day of the same building close up.

Looks similar but I suspect its not the same building. This one looks like the Beduin school, or the governors house (less likely). Both are "deeper" in town.

I believe this picture was taken form a distance of a Km, from a side of town where there were only few fortifications. I'll have a closer look on the arial photographs from 1917, later today.