Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

TURKISH MACHINE GUNS AT GALLIPOLI


Chris Best

Recommended Posts

Not that it matters, but in the interests of historical accuracy, I think I should point out that it was me that first drew attention to this strange film ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, SiegeGunner said:

Not that it matters, but in the interests of historical accuracy, I think I should point out that it was me that first drew attention to this strange film ...

 

Indeed, and, I/they/we can't take that away from you.

 

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes my apologies Seige Gunner for not mentioning your interesting find. It all adds to the discussion.

Thanks

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

I have been permitted to put up parts of a letter written by 1021 Pte/Bugler John Ellwood Rudd, born in NSW but residing in Donnybrook, Western Australian when he joined the 11th Battalion AIF in September 1914. He had over 4 years service with the 25th Light Horse when he joined at 24 years of age. His service records indicate he was wounded on 25 April and 30 April, the former indicating a bomb wound to the shoulder, although this appears incorrect and a bullet wound to left thigh sustained on the latter date being accurate. This borne out by his letter to a young lady, written on 6 May 1915 while recuperating in Egypt. I make this point to indicate that sometimes records were inaccurate. Of course the main point is that Rudd mentions coming under mg and rifle fire whilst landing, and another fascinating point is that he appears to have landed without a rifle, carrying only a bill hook, which is an agricultural type knife used for cutting. He also mentions coming across a German officer at the Landing. Interestingly, he describes 2 lights on a hill going up as they approached. I suppose being written so close to the landing day, removes some doubts on recollection. A nice account that marries up nicely with many others. A member of C Coy off the London in the first wave.

 

"Well dear we went aboard the battleship HMS London on Sat 24th April and started for the Dardanelles at 1pm. We knew the job we had in front of us and I tell I did not have very much sleep. Well kid, we had supper about 12 and then got ready to get into small boats; about half past 2 we moved off, each pinnace pulling 3 cutters full of troops. It was dark, the moon had just gone down and a bit cold. When we were about a quarter of a mile from the shore we could see the dark hills rising up in front of us and I felt as if something was going to happen, and when we were about 100 yards off the shore there was a flash of light on one side of the hill and then another on the other, and then they opened fire on us both with machine guns and rifles. You can imagine how we felt, bullets clipping all around us and some going through the boats. We were sitting there all huddled up, we couldn't do anything and when we were about 50 yards from the shore the pinnaces let go and we had to row the rest, a very slow process. We all jumped out up to our necks in water, some nearly got drowned as it was over their heads. Well kid, we struggledonto the beach wet and cold and dropped behind a lttle ridge of reeds/bushes and stopped there till we could sling our packs off and get into line and then the (a few chaps got shot in the meantime) charge began......

You know I did not have a rifle. I only had a bill hook....

On Friday night I volunteered to go out to cut scrub in front of the trench (using my bill hook) as it was dangerous, a turk could sneak up nearly up to our trench without being seen....

I had not cut more than about 10 hits with the chopper when plomp a bullet hit me in the left thigh about 6 inches above the knee...."

 

Rudd survived Gallipoli and wound up in the 48th Bn in April 1916 on the reorganization of the AIF. Wrapped up and made POW on 11 April 1917, he survived to return to Australia in 1919. Nice to see another account pop up. The bill hook yarn is most interesting.

 

Cheers

Ian

Edited by gilly100
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, gilly100 said:

I have been permitted to put up parts of a letter written by 1021 Pte/Bugler John Ellwood Rudd, born in NSW but residing in Donnybrook, Western Australian when he joined the 11th Battalion AIF in September 1914. He had over 4 years service with the 25th Light Horse when he joined at 24 years of age. His service records indicate he was wounded on 25 April and 30 April, the former indicating a bomb wound to the shoulder, although this appears incorrect and a bullet wound to left thigh sustained on the latter date being accurate. This borne out by his letter to a young lady, written on 6 May 1915 while recuperating in Egypt. I make this point to indicate that sometimes records were inaccurate. Of course the main point is that Rudd mentions coming under mg and rifle fire whilst landing, and another fascinating point is that he appears to have landed without a rifle, carrying only a bill hook, which is an agricultural type knife used for cutting. He also mentions coming across a German officer at the Landing. Interestingly, he describes 2 lights on a hill going up as they approached. I suppose being written so close to the landing day, removes some doubts on recollection. A nice account that marries up nicely with many others. A member of C Coy off the London in the first wave.

 

"Well dear we went aboard the battleship HMS London on Sat 24th April and started for the Dardanelles at 1pm. We knew the job we had in front of us and I tell I did not have very much sleep. Well kid, we had supper about 12 and then got ready to get into small boats; about half past 2 we moved off, each pinnace pulling 3 cutters full of troops. It was dark, the moon had just gone down and a bit cold. When we were about a quarter of a mile from the shore we could see the dark hills rising up in front of us and I felt as if something was going to happen, and when we were about 100 yards off the shore there was a flash of light on one side of the hill and then another on the other, and then they opened fire on us both with machine guns and rifles. You can imagine how we felt, bullets clipping all around us and some going through the boats. We were sitting there all huddled up, we couldn't do anything and when we were about 50 yards from the shore the pinnaces let go and we had to row the rest, a very slow process. We all jumped out up to our necks in water, some nearly got drowned as it was over their heads. Well kid, we struggledonto the beach wet and cold and dropped behind a lttle ridge of reeds/bushes and stopped

 

I have to say that to the outsider several points here seem problematic. Why was he carrying a bill hook rather than a rifle? Would the officers allow that? In most situations it would be a useless "weapon". 

 

Again in the oft-mentioned "German officer" in the Turkish front lines. For years and years I have been reading all the primary sources I can find in German and French about matters on the Turkish/German side (I did once spend three days trying to translate three pages of Modern Turkish, a nightmare), and there were no German officers in Turkish formations below the level of regimental HQs, despite the multiple "sightings". I suspect that a Turkish officer, with a better class of tailored uniform, and perhaps a lighter skin, might be assumed to be German; also might be able to speak French, or possibly English or German (if alive). 

 

Also, jumping into the water over their heads with full kit and surviving? How?

 

I am getting the impression that Pte Rudd was "gilding the lily" for the young damsel. I have read perhaps six memoires by Digger ORs, and there were some very fanciful stories, and citations of Turkish weapons that did not exist. (Mentions of sea monsters and dinasours, the latter used as beasts of burden.) When we read accounts by guys on "our side" we swell with pride, and get angry when anyone casts doubt. But say 2000 posts ago on this thread we were debating Turkish female civilian snipers in no man's land with MGs, and other such fanciful things. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike. I do recall reading some of the Gurkha lads around Damakjelik Bair in August being called upon to clear brush away with their kukris. Hope I spelt that right.

I had never heard of a billhook prior to this letter. Apparently there were military versions made for some armies. Rudd did mention picking up a rifle on gaining either first or second ridge, probably up on Plugges. He would also be one of very few 11Bn men transferred to the 48th Bn on the reorganization in Egypt. When the 11Th Bn had to split in half to form the new 51st Bn, that was where the large majority went with regard to infantry.

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So perhaps Rudd lost his rifle, perhaps in the landing. Then his being armed with an agricultural implement made sense. I took the account literally, and assumed that he was displaying that legendary and refreshing Digger individualism that reportedly sent many Brits "up the wall", like favoring shooting skills over marching, and in particularly saluting. Or is that a stereotype?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Mates,

 

A lot has been said about Ottoman records and these missing MGs. While many words are said one way or another I did notice some thing in the TOWH (Turkish Offical war History) Vol 5, but on the Kum Kale battle.

 

This covers the 6th Company 2Bn 31st Regt in Pages 100-101 of this fighting.

 

"A company from the 31st Regiment (the 6th Company) was assigned to Kumkale. This company had three platoons. One of these platoons was pushed forward to the south to the surroundings of the Orhaniye ridges–Yenişehir. A section of the platoon was kept rounded up at Yenişehir and the rest was on duty scattered around as surveillance patrols. A platoon from the company was assigned to coastal surveillance and security duty at the wooden wharf (inclusive) at Kumkale Point and the reedy area in between. The majority of the platoon was positioned at the historical fortress and right in front of its walls. The last platoon, in the hands of the company, was divided in two and half the platoon was pushed to the opening of the Menderes rivulet and the other half of the platoon was brought to the Kumkale southern exit as company reserve. There was no heavy weaponry in the company. However, a platoon from the 31st Regiment made up with two heavy machine guns was positioned to the east of the Menderes, close to the windmill that was a further distance from the ridges facing Kumkale."

 

And page 101

 

a. The 2nd Battalion and the Regimental Heavy Machine Gun Company of the 31st Infantry Regiment*, being brought forward, occupied their positions in the surroundings of Intepe on the west and southwest ridges. The 1st Battalion was sent to the Tevfikiye positions. And the 3rd Battalion, being removed from the alarm location at Halileli, was marshalled to Yenişehir over the Kalafatli bridge. This battalion was assigned the duty of reinforcing the 6th Company and repulsing by attack any enemy landing attempt on the shores of Kumkale–Orhaniye

*Two machine gun platoons of this company were pushed to the Menderes

 

So we have and interesting account of the 31st Regt deployment, what I found I highlighted, The company had no heavy weapons, but a platoon was made up of two MG's.

 

So where did these MG's come from?

 

Then I noticed at the bottom of the second page, that two MG sections were pushed to the Menderes area, while also to the Intepe area?

 

Were the two Mgs mentioned with the 6th Company from one section Regt MG Co around Menderes, while the other MG section went to Intepe?

 

Or where did these extra MGs come from?

 

I should mention that a Ottoman MG Company had only two MG Sections (each of two MGs) per company.

 

S.B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve;

 

A couple of questions. 

 

Any date for these events? It may be apparent to anyone who has exhaustively studied the ANZAC side of the campaign, but less so who studies mainly the Turkish side, reading in different languages, where different place names are often used. 

 

Secondly, I am not sure exactly the meaning of your question. "Where did these extra MGs come from?" From which physical location? From which supplier of the weapons? From which higher-level unit? I might have some information, but the date and precise question would be useful. 

 

I have been away from the study of the Great War, and Gallipoli, for 3-4 years, and have to get up to speed again. I had heard that only a very sketchy volume of the Turkish official histories have been produced in English. Does your citation of "Volume 5" imply that a much larger amount of material is now available in English? Or does it imply that you are extremely fortunate and can read Modern Turkish? As one who looks back to spending three extremely painful days attempting to translate three pages of Turkish, to an extremely mixed result, tentatively my hat is off to you. 

 

Also, I can't even recall if I saw the actual volume, or someone reported on the quality, but I recall that the volume in English available a few years ago was a really questionable translation, or original writing in English. Has that situation changed? I appologize for my questions, but if I am oriented I might have something. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bob lembke said:

I had heard that only a very sketchy volume of the Turkish official histories have been produced in English. Does your citation of "Volume 5" imply that a much larger amount of material is now available in English? 

...

Also, I can't even recall if I saw the actual volume, or someone reported on the quality, but I recall that the volume in English available a few years ago was a really questionable translation, or original writing in English. Has that situation changed? I appologize for my questions, but if I am oriented I might have something. 

 

Online accounts taken from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Gallipoli , section Historical books online https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Gallipoli#Historical_books_online

 

English language translation of the Turkish General Staff Military History and Strategic Institute's History of the Dardanelles Front Operations Amphibious Operations [The Gallipoli Campaign] mq.edu.au

 

Translated Turkish Works on Gallipoli mq.edu.au

 

Official historical account of the Dardanelles Campaign by Genelkurmay Baskanligi [Chief of General Staff] Turkey English translation 1925. Combined Arms Research Library Digital Library [USA Army]. Typescript copy translated from the Turk by Captain Larcher; translated from the French by Captain E.M. Benitez, the French translation appearing in Les Archives de la Grande Guerre, Volume 17  page 129 and page 257, published 1924. (gallica.bnf.fr)

 

The Battle of Anzac Cove, Gallipoli, 25 April 1915, Lt-Col. Sefik Aker Account Desert Column website (link may be slow to open). In 1935, Lieutenant Colonel Sefik Aker, commander of the 27th Infantry Regiment, produced a small book called: Canakkale - Ariburnu savaslari ve 27 alay (The Dardanelles - The Ariburnu Battles and the 27th Regiment), some of which has been translated.

 

Cheers

Maureen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

 

Sorry your right, should have added more details on what I was thinking.

 

The details from the TOWH Vol 5 (English verison), which deals with the Ottomans forces around Gallipoli and the battles their during 1915.

 

That part is the French landing at Kum Kale, and the Ottoman forces to defend the landing.

 

Other parts also record the Anzac landing and the Helles landing.

 

When you compare the Anzac landing against the Kum Kale landing in the book, we find that the Ottomans do go into some details on their forces. While not as deep as I would like we do see what MG's were with their forces.

 

Yes I known that, do we believe these records when allied accounts mention all these MGs and such, but it does show that yes the Ottomans do record there MG's and yes they mention when they used them in their Offical records?

 

S.B

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Steve;

 

thanks for the clarification. I now see that the info I have (which I am still translating from the German) does not answer your question, in the sense that you meant. Since the work is incomplete, it is probably better to keep it to myself until I get it quite sorted out. But it addresses your literal question as seen in a different sense. So I can't add anything to your insight. 

Edited by bob lembke
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Another 10Bn AIF scout, widely regarded as having penetrated further onto Third Ridge than any other was Arthur Blackburn VC. He said this regarding coming ashore. 

 

"The shore came to life in a most unpleasant fashion for bullets started whizzing in all directions. The crack of rifles and machine guns was rapidly growing louder as more and more men started firing at us and all we could do was crouch as low as possible in the boat and grin and bear it."

 

One of Australias great soldiers in two wars.

 

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

 

As to Rudd

 

RUDD Joseph Ellwood 1021 Pte 11Bn ECo to Bugler CCo 1-15 WIA 25/30-4-15 L/shoulder or thigh shot evac to (2 ASH) hosp 1-5-15 rtn 5-15 evac to St Georges hosp Malta (rheum) 7-15 to (Fulham) hosp UK 8-15 (G) to 3 Trg Bn 3-16 to BCo/48Bn 4-16 to T/Cpl 10-16 to Cpl 12-16 to Sgt 1-17 reported MIA 11-4-17 & PoW 11-4-17 at Riencourt - Bullecourt F&B repat to UK 12-18 (B Troop DSqn/25 LH CMF 4 years later WWII  AKA John Ellwood Rudd
 

If he arrived at 2 ASH on the 1 May then was he wounded on the 30 April, as he shows being in a CCS on the 30 April before evac to Egypt?

 

But I can add no more on the MG question, as he believed, as did the 10Bn scout, he was being shot at or heard MGs, I have no dought, but were there an MGs is another question, and these accounts, while interesting, are not proof there was all these MGs there at that time?

 

As to the German officer he saw, how did he know he was a German officer?

 

As Germans attached to the Ottoman Army wore the same Ottoman uniform as Ottoman officers and soldiers. So how did he know he was a German?

 

Was he wearing an Iron Cross?

 

Ottoman officers had these awards, while in April 1915 there were not many around at that time, as they later became common.

 

So I am still not concern by these quotes from soldiers records as they can never be crossed checked and can only be taken at face value, which is open to correction.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Referring back to Murray Ewen's 'Gallipoli Maxims' article in the Gallipolian a few years ago now, he quotes an Ottoman officer lecturing on the anniversay of Liman von Sanders passing that during the Landings "... all available machine guns of the fortifications of the Dardanelles and of the fleet were disposed of." No ships mentioned by name, but one Turk POW statement named the Barbaros Hayreddin as supplying mgs to the 9th Division. Prior to this all we knew was the Goeben and Breslau supplying men and mgs in early May. How many mgs came off other ships locked up in the straits is a point of question to which is answered above by the Ottoman officer.Then there is DFC and its screaming silence on participation with weapons other than big guns.

Forgetting the hundreds of Allied soldiers and sailors saying mg fire and just looking at accounts by men who dismantled an enemy mg such as Talbot Smith and Weatherill of 10bn, or Derham of 5bn finding a Turk mg in gun emplacements on Pine Ridge, later attempting to carry it back on retiring, it begs the obvious question to the naysayers. What of Weatherills evidence to Bean? What of Derhams? And what of Colonel Harun el Raschid Bey in his lecture?

No one has bothered to critique the now translated Turk OH on Gallipoli, yet I found numerous contradictions and mistakes. It all screams to me something is not right regarding 25 April, at least the new version anyway! German participation by men and or weapons remains not fully disclosed in my opinion. I firmly believe the likes of Weatherill, Derham, Harrison, Thomas, Mason and those that handled a captured enemy weapon or mg parts. I wouldn't be game to label them as gilding the lily, so what then?

Ian

Edited by gilly100
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

 

We have gone through this before, " 'Gallipoli Maxims' article in the Gallipolian a few years ago now". he has not proved any MG's were on the Anzac Beaches?

 

To say there was is incorrect, when this was the last place any Turkish force would place them.

 

The defences of the Dardenelles was the main concern, and many of these Pom Pom guns which show up in the 9th Div Order of Battle are some of these so called guns off the navy?

 

The 9th Div was lucky to have the small number of MGs shown on there records, as most Infantry Division didn't even have that many (or 4 MGs per MG Company).

 

So when you say "How many mgs came off other ships locked up in the straits is a point of question to which is answered above by the Ottoman officer" the question should be why place any of these guns at Anzac, and not say at Helles, where the was a real reason for fearing a Allied landing.

 

But we go in circles.

 

S.B

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Steve

Glad you brought up Helles. The accounts by the men manning mgs on the River Clyde firing at an enemy mg ensconsed at Sedd el Bahr seem pretty conclusive to me, amongst others. I will keep chipping away all the same. One doesn't have to reply if getting dizzy. As I said before, not one comment on the men I named in last post and their encounters at Anzac. I would also be interested to see some comment on what others think of the TOH Gallipoli. There has been critique of Bean and Oglander, but, as yet, none that I am aware of on the Turkish work. As an example, did the prevailing Ottoman/ German relationship have any bearing on what was written and how?

A fair and interesting question I think.

Cheers

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

 

Following the naval battles of March, the Ottomans beafed up there land defences as British landing parties put a scare into the Ottomans.

 

That is the logical place for any of these small numbers of MGs/Pom poms off the Ottoman navy.

 

There were a large number of these forts and mobile batteries to be protected.

 

From what I read the MG fire at the "River Cyde" was from the SB fort, but I am not sure about this side of the landing, other then checking the Ottoman Regt and MG Company holding that area.

 

But I read there was wild claims of many MGs firing on the landing troops, that could not be substained from any records?

 

But not my area so Its hard to comment.

 

S.B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

This is a more full account related to Bean by the then Lt Connell of 12bn, who was 182 Sgt Connell at the Landing. Awarded a DCM for driving Turks from a trench carrying a machine gun as they bolted. AWM38 3DRL 606 31 1

 

"3 guns (meaning the Krupps guns) one Turk going away with breech block on saddle of mule was shot. Lot of ammo lying around and looks as if guns had been galloped off. No emplacements... 2 whole guns, 1 with breech block taken away. Major Brand and an officer and some 20 men had plenty of time gathering ammo, they went on further. To our left was mg in trench. We went on and routed that out. We took one trench. They put a burst into it but when they saw we were determined to take the trench they cleared out with the gun. We were in the trench perhaps an hour - by that time the Turks were coming down hill to our front. We came back by rushes to the line."

 

This clearly early in the day and probably the mg that was firing up Owen's Gully all day that others mentioned.  Not from Hill 165 that is for sure. What say the naysayers? 

 

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In regard to Ian's post concerning Rudd going ashore with only a Bill Hook. The standard encumbrances for these 'First Landers' was; reserve ammunition, packs, rifle, bayonet, entrenching tool, iron rations, two water bottles, picks, shovels, wire cutters and empty sand bags.The Field Pocket Book 1914, p.105 shows a table for a working party from the 13th Infantry Brigade (1st Scots Fusiliers) as consisting of picks, shovels, felling axes, hand axes and billhooks, for cutting brush, which one would assume was equipped with a long handle or pole for ease of use. So perhaps it was not a bad idea that Rudd was carrying a billhook, when we consider prickly brush covered Gallipoli landscape. If we now consider Rudd's situation, the landing was intended to have been north of Kaba Tepe. It was known that barbed wire was strung out close to the beach and/or  under the water, therefore a Billhook perhaps used in unison with wire cutters might have have been a wise inclusion. It should also be noted that the Royal Navy also used an implement on a long pole, oddly enough called Billhook which was equipped with a spike and hook on one end. It is my experience that the more I work with these accounts, the more I am learning to trust what I am being told. Sure, some men like a good yarn, and hey why the let the truth get in the way of a good story. However, on the whole I believe the majority of these accounts are truthful. Why don't we all just go with what we are being told, because if we read it from a number of different sources, it is extremely likely that what we are being told is correct.

LonerangerVC

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

 

Clearly Connell account related to the late morning after LtCol Aker had arrived with the remainder of the 27th Ottoman Regt.

 

The Battery (Krupp Guns) appears to be Capt Sadik 7th Mountain Bty 3Bn/9th FAR placed near the Cup and over ran by 10Bn soldiers and others, of which only one 75mm Mountain gun got away from the four guns there to Gun Ridge.

 

The MG Company (27th MG Co) was active in that area but no losses are reported.

 

While Capt Hamdi Efendi and his two section officers Lt's Halil Efendi and Saadet Efendi were in action and Lt Saadet Efendi
was wounded during the fighting that day.

 

Now if this account was earlier then that given above, we should have to take a closer look at it.

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Steve

A careful look at Aker account and TOH clearly maintains that 27Regt mgs were deployed on Hill 165, and it was not until very late in the day one mg was sent forward to J Jolly. Another account says two sent. Connell account is clearly earlier than that I believe given the other narrative involved. Loutit got back from Third Ridge to Wire Gully and Mortar Ridge prior to Peck of 11bn getting wounded precisely at 10am at same location.  Loutit maintained he was chased back by a party of Turks carrying one mg. I just don't know how this no mg story stands up.

Perhaps you can comment on Weatherill and Derham's accounts. Would love to see those ones explained away. Talbot Smith MID for 25 April, Weatherill DCM, MID for 25 April, Connell DCM for 25 April, Derham MC for 25 April, Hooper MID, Mason DCM, MID for 25 April. All maintained mgs or it was mentioned in citation etc.

I'll pop another one up soon, another 12bn man.

Cheers

Ian

Edited by gilly100
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Here attached is the account of Rafferty of 12bn coming ashore from a destroyer and being detailed by his CO Lt Col Clarke to suppress the fire coming from the left towards No1 Outpost and F Hut. He quite clearly mentions the majority of fire being mg fire as they sought to assist the 7bn men who came ashore near F Hut soon after them.

All from Bean's notebooks and diaries. One will note the comment by the NZ'ers that took possession of No1 Outpost a few days after the landing. This was where Tulloch of 11bn described coming under mg fire as he ascended Walker'sRidge that first morning.

Ian

Screenshot_2017-09-30-10-55-56.png.d84348250260fad08cdf578b98c3364f.png

Screenshot_2017-09-30-10-56-08.png.cff4d431e9a950a9f069d8edcda447ac.png

Screenshot_2017-09-30-10-56-23.png.47ea5635d2eb155c19d43ae5f39a7b24.png

Screenshot_2017-09-30-10-56-35.png.a6dea850720899c44e4156931f53bf8d.png

Screenshot_2017-09-30-10-57-11.png.7395ad8a06db36c38a73be7073047c7e.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have attached the Connell 12bn account as written down by Bean. The context of the narrative indicates early in the day, the sketch clearly outlines the 3 Krupps guns in Owen's Gully and the mg on what I would say is J Jolly. Connell notes that the Krupps guns had been galloped up, and one had its breech block removed etc. In the same Bean notebook is another sketch and info of 9bn men at two guns, one a Hotchkiss, the other having a shield of steel. The sketch indicates to me these guns at Pine Ridge some hundreds of yards away from the other guns. Of course that is another story, but mgs were encountered at both sites. The accounts by 9 and 10bn men regarding the capture of the Krupps battery are sometimes conflicting and confusing, but if we accept the capture of these other guns at Pine Ridge, it tends to make more sense. I note Weatherill's DCM reccomendation mentions the captue of TWO enemy guns. Perhaps he got the Pine Ridge guns. Three guns near Owen's Gully and the Cup and two on Pine Ridge. Both appear to have had mg protection, and I believe the mg that was shouldered off after Connell's attempt to capture was highly likely the mg that Australians recorded numerously firing up Owens Gully all that first day. Just my thoughts of course.

Ian

Screenshot_2017-09-27-15-42-46.png.e01a16e1097542e7377f4d5994e9aae9.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...