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TURKISH MACHINE GUNS AT GALLIPOLI

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michaeldr
48 minutes ago, emrezmen said:

Both Tur and Fr sources (including French COE war diary and Turkish OH) accepts presence of MGs near the mouth of Menderes River. Both mentions a "windmill."

Thank you for that

50 minutes ago, emrezmen said:

Presence of MGs at the mouth of Menderes River is almost certain.

and for that

....................

50 minutes ago, emrezmen said:

I think we will have exact location of MG(s) when we found the location of that/those windmill(s).  

So far I have not been able to find a map which would really help here

I look forward to others having more success

 

regards

Michael

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Umeu
2 hours ago, emrezmen said:

Let's sum it up:

- I think we all agree on there were no MGs directly opposed French landing/No MGs deployed in Kumkale Fort or on the 1 km long beach south of it (as supposed to be, imo). Only indirect intervention. MGs probably disabled within a short time by a bombardment from Henri IV. 

 

- Both Tur and Fr sources (including French COE war diary and Turkish OH) accepts presence of MGs near the mouth of Menderes River. Both mentions a "windmill."

BUT interestingly, regarding to position of MGs, French COE war diary saying "left bank" (i.e. west of the river) while Turkish OH saying "east of the river." From Fr WD:

 

1.JPG.a26dd7a6f1d3c1276c09420df05455be.JPG

 

"Elles se trouvent immédiatement en butte (...) au tir des mitrailleuses installées dans un des moulins qui s'élèvent à l'embouchure du Mendere Chai (rive gauche)."

 

Presence of MGs at the mouth of Menderes River is almost certain. At this point, although it is necessary to examine the war diary of 31st Regt (a hard row to hoe), I think we will have exact location of MG(s) when we found the location of that/those windmill(s).  

 

 

 

I think left bank depends on where you're standing right. If you're coming down from Kum Kale village, and you're facing the mendere in front, and the Aegean Sea on your right, and the mouth of the Dardanelles in your back, then the left bank would also be east of the river. If you're looking at the map, then yes, left bank would be west, but they didn't come from that direction. So the machine gun is most likely east of the river.

 

I have another question regarding that, I've read that troops were defending the area around the cemetery, does anyone have an estimation how many there were? Also I read that a bridge was destroyed by a british warship, is that the bridge over the mendere or the other bridge? 

 

 

About windmills, I found this here: https://cdn.comu.edu.tr/cms/ckalearastirma/files/532-turan-takaoglu-mithat-atabay-canakkale-savasi-sira.pdf

 

image.png.11fa8d48a098ef71d6efbd6a18a7bdbb.png

 

But the location they mention seems a totally different one from those mentioned in the other sources (at the mouth of the mendere). This text doesn't mention machine guns though. 

Edited by Umeu

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stevebecker

Mate,

 

From the maps the 39th Regt (2xBns) attacked from Yenisehr, while the 31st Regt held the Yukar Kumkale area across the river.

 

Ottoman ORbat all show the 39th Regt had no MG company, while the 31st Regt had its MG company to help its defence, so thats confirmed that the MG fire must have been the 31st MG Company.

 

Did that company loss two of its MG's and another blown out by the Battleship, as the French report?

 

Since (part) of the 64th Regt backed up the 31st Regt, did its MG company get involved?

 

S.B

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Umeu

I thought it was the french who lost 2 mg's to the turkish troops?

Edited by Umeu

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stevebecker

Mate,

 

Thanks, I belived it was our pro MG men, who were claiming these lost by the Turks there.

 

Cheers


S.B

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michaeldr

Re-reading Erickson's Gallipoli – The Ottoman Campaign I am reminded that he states (p.82) that the initial French landing was met by Ottoman machine-gun fire:

"Shelling by the navy began early but unexpectedly strong currents kept the French from landing until 10 am. Nevertheless by 11:15 am, Kum Kale was in French hands. Ottoman resistance was feeble and was limited to some machine-gun firing."

 

He also (p.84/5) mentions the incident where the French officer Captain Rockel was killed “under a white flag” and confirms that the incident is covered by the modern Turkish official history which Erickson says gives the explanation that the

“tired and isolated (Ottoman) survivors were confused and dispirited and, while waiting the arrival of higher ranking French officers, renewed fighting broke out during which Rockel was killed.”

Erickson gives his ref for this as: TCGB, Çanakkale Cephesi Harekati (Amfibi Herekat) p.73

Erickson continues: "In any event, a large number of survivors surrendered to the French, who shot an Ottoman officers and eight soldiers in retaliation for the death of Rockel"

Erickson's ref for the latter statement is given as the British OH

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stevebecker

Mate,

 

In fact he said (Erickson) "Ottoman resistance was feeble and was limited to some MG fire"

 

Of cause he does not say what that means?

 

Were there MG's with the 2Bn/31st Regt or as the maps show with the 2xBns 31st Regt & MG Company around Yukar Kumkale area across the river.

 

Anyway "some MG Fire" does not sound like a heavy storm of MG fire most often stated by Allied writers.

 

S.B

 

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Rockturner

Steve Mate,

Perhaps Erickson can answer the feeble question. As for a storm of machine gun fire The book of the Machine Gun by Longstaff and Atteridge, p.68 states; "As to the question of the comparative fire effect of a single machine gun and a number of riflemen, he [Captain Vuilleumier, Swiss Army Staff 1904] estimates that the fire effect of a machine gun is equivalent to that from 100 to 150 rifles, and, as the range increases beyond 800 yards, the advantage of a machine gun will be greater'.

Therefore you choose the climate, 150 rifles, or one machine gun. Hmm, it's a tricky one, but isn't it a scenario we've discussed in the past.

LonerangerVC

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michaeldr
On 15/09/2018 at 10:44, michaeldr said:

Ottoman resistance was feeble and was limited to some machine-gun firing."

 

10 hours ago, stevebecker said:

In fact he said (Erickson) "Ottoman resistance was feeble and was limited to some MG fire"

 

Er.......No.

 

1075070069_Ericksonquote.jpg.9e79ad13578c4d6c59438d92f56e460c.jpg

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green_acorn

Apologies, I didn't read Steves post and Michaels reply correctly

Edited by green_acorn

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stevebecker

Mate,

 

Your right while Some MG fire could be one MG or possibly two, but not a full MG company of four guns.  The again Rock, could be right as Ottoman Rifle fire or any Rifle fire has been mistaken for MG fire more then once in this early period of the war.

 

Did the 2Bn 31st Regt put up a strong rifle fire as the 2Bn 27th Regt did at the landings at Anzac?

 

Or during the day did the MG Company 31st Regt around Yukar Kumkale bring there guns to bare?

 

But Rock is correct, we may never know what they are saying, as this question like that at Anzac can not be answered.

 

S.B

 

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gilly100

Anzac answered many times over by our long since gone Anzacs😁

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