1914 Star to nurses

[royalredcross]

Someone asked about this within another topic and I can't remember which. Anyway my count is:

QA 155

QA Reserve 161

TFNS 59

CHR about 367

I may be one or two out, but that's about the rarity. None to RN nurses, but there are some odd units who had a few.

Haven't counted BRCS & OStJJ.

Norman

[Clive Harris]

Thanks Royal, it was me, I did some research on an Edith Watkins MM, alas for me she was awarded the 1914 Star with the BRC, the one group you havn't finished yet!. The qualification date was 6/10/14 and she was posted to No5 Paris Unit, in March 1915 she transferred to the QAIMNS® until 1921 when discharged.

[nemesis]

I have a 1914 Trio to  BRCS Sister. I haven't researched it yet but would appreciate and advice. Do the ladies have papers like the other service members ?.

[seaJane]

1,429 entries for "red cross" + sister + WO in The National Archives 1900-1924. Add your target's name in the search box and you may strike lucky.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q="Red+cross"+sister+WO&_p=1900&Refine+dates=Refine

[michaeldr]

On 25/10/2005 at 16:20, royalredcross said:

None to RN nurses, but there are some odd units who had a few.

Fever & Wilson's 'The 1914 Star to the RN & RM' lists on p.192 "Mrs Stobart's Hospital Unit"

which includes 20 ladies plus at least one Doctor named as Dr. Rose Turner, suggesting that she too was a lady

Edit to add: p.179 also has a single lady named under the heading 'Ambulance 65 Hospital Burnyear - Belgian Red Cross.'

 

 

 

Edited 18 November , 2022 by michaeldr

[alf mcm]

9 hours ago, nemesis said:

I have a 1914 Trio to  BRCS Sister. I haven't researched it yet but would appreciate and advice. Do the ladies have papers like the other service members ?.

Findmypast has transcriptions of the Red Cross record cards. You may find your nurse's details there. British Army, British Red Cross Society volunteers 1914-1918 | findmypast.co.uk

Regards,

Alf McM

[nemesis]

23 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Findmypast has transcriptions of the Red Cross record cards. You may find your nurse's details there. British Army, British Red Cross Society volunteers 1914-1918 | findmypast.co.uk

Regards,

Alf McM

Thanks Alf. Will look

[nemesis]

Record Card located. Also medal index card and medal roll found. 
thanks to all who replied

max

On 18/11/2022 at 01:05, seaJane said:

1,429 entries for "red cross" + sister + WO in The National Archives 1900-1924. Add your target's name in the search box and you may strike lucky.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q="Red+cross"+sister+WO&_p=1900&Refine+dates=Refine

Record Card located. Also medal index card and medal roll found. 
thanks to all who replied

On 18/11/2022 at 01:05, seaJane said:

Edited 20 November , 2022 by nemesis
Duplicate entry

[KizmeRD]

 

On 18/11/2022 at 07:30, michaeldr said:

Fever & Wilson's 'The 1914 Star to the RN & RM' lists on p.192 "Mrs Stobart's Hospital Unit"

which includes 20 ladies plus at least one Doctor named as Dr. Rose Turner, suggesting that she too was a lady

Edit to add: p.179 also has a single lady named under the heading 'Ambulance 65 Hospital Burnyear - Belgian Red Cross.'

 

 

As I understand it, the senior doctor of Mrs Sobart’s Hospital in Antwerp was Florence Stoney, accompanied by five other female doctors Joan Watts, Helen Hanson, Mabel Ramsay, Rose Turner and Emily Morris. The unit shown on their Star was ‘Aux. Hosp. Unit, Antwerp’

 

MB

Edited 20 November , 2022 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

@KizmeRD The 1914 Star  Roll includes all the doctors you name, with the exception of Emily MORRIS. She does not apear elsewhere in the Roll. The five others are all listed as "Dr." and "MD BSc" with the rank of "Medical Staff" in Mrs Stobart's Hospital Unit but, again, with one anomaly: Rose TURNER is listed as "Dr" with no "MD BSc", nor is she noted as "Medical Staff". One source suggests that "Dr." in her case may stand for Driver (the only one on the Roll). I think this mistaken.

[KizmeRD]

I can’t claim to be an expert on this particular topic, just fortunate enough to have recently read an excellent article on Antwerp in Scarletfinders (see below)…

Doctor Rose Turner left early on 2nd October to return to England.
 

http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/165.html

MB

[Ian Riley]

By no means all doctors would be qualified with MD. The double degree MB ChB is an alternative as was (is?) MRCS MRCP (Membership of the Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal College of Physicians or (until 2008) the Licence in Medicine and Surgery of the Society of Apothecaries

[KizmeRD]

Here’s a photo of Mrs Stobart’s detachment during their period in Antwerp (she’s the lady in the black hat in the centre of the photo).

Also, for added interest - see reverse of 1914 Star as Issued to Nurse Caroline Wilson (from Broken Hill, Aus.) one of three Australian nurses in the photo, seated two places away from Mrs Stobart (on the right of the photo).

MB

 

Edited 20 November , 2022 by KizmeRD

[smiller]

On 21/11/2022 at 02:23, KizmeRD said:

Here’s a photo of Mrs Stobart’s detachment during their period in Antwerp (she’s the lady in the black hat in the centre of the photo).

Also, for added interest - see reverse of 1914 Star as Issued to Nurse Caroline Wilson (from Broken Hill, Aus.) one of three Australian nurses in the photo, seated two places away from Mrs Stobart (on the right of the photo).

MB

 

Thanks for copying this information about Nurse Caroline Wilson (Carrie). Unfortunately, the Discovering ANZACs website that had other information about her has been decommissioned due to cyber security issues.
As a correction, Carrie spent about a year in Broken Hill after she completed her nursing training and before she went to England in July 1913. She was from South Australia, but lived in NSW after she married (aged 50), initially on the farm near Delungra and then in greater Sydney.

[smiller]

1914-Star-Nurses-v5.pdf This is a poster, titles "1914 Star Nurses", was prepared for the Centenary of Armistice and displayed at the South Australian Genealogy and Heraldry Society (SAGHS or Genealogy SA). There were three Australian nurses in Mrs Stobart's hospital in Antwerp, and while Carrie and Claire received the 1914 Star with Clasp, it is unclear whether Catherine Tully applied for hers.

Edited 4 April , 2023 by smiller
Upload picture version of pdf

[KizmeRD]

Thank you for posting the additional narrative history regarding  the three Australian nurses, however I would have to dispute the assertion that any of the nurses mentioned received the 1914 Star with Clasp. The medal roll is available to download from TNA and clearly indicates ‘No auxiliary hospital personnel entitled to 1914 clasp’ (NP II’’ 1820/20). - It seems unfair, I know - as all the hospital staff in Antwerp at the time were certainly under German bombardment. However, in the absence of any other primary source material shedding different light on the issue, I can only conclude that any medal with a clasp displayed (or indeed the rosette) was in fact a private addition, or possibly something that was added by a subsequent collector, whose ownership the medals passed into.

I would also question the remark made about all the medical staff of Mrs Stobart’s Hospital in Antwerp being female (it would be more correct to refer to ‘nursing staff’). There are a number of published memoirs, as well as the medal roll itself that specifically list a number of male surgeons, orderlies and drivers included within Mrs Stobart’s group who helped staff the hospital.

In the case of Trestrail (14610) and Tully (14612) the clasp was indeed applied for - but the medal roll is annotated ‘Application for clasp refused’ and it seems that Wilson (14615) never applied for a clasp to her medal.

Trestrail’s medal was issued 6.6.19.

Tully’s on 26.8.19.

and Wilson got hers issued 16.6.19.

Ref. ADM-171-139-3 pp.150-151.

MB

 

'

 

 

[smiller]

I beg to differ about the clasp 

At first they were denied the medals but they were later issued through the navy. Perhaps it is Tully's family that don't know about her medals.

I attach a photo of Carrie's medal with the rosette on the full medal. I recall the rosette is worn when not in uniform. The family weren't the sort of people that would have added the clasp. I believe that I'm the only one that has replicas (of the full set), and that's because of the condition the originals are in.

I also note than when Dr Helen Hanson's medals were advertised for sale in 2012, the photo shows the clasp and the text says she was entitled to the clasp.. 

 

[smiller]

With respect to all the medical staff of Mrs Stobart’s Hospital in Antwerp being female, from the documents I have read, all the doctors and nurses were female. The 3 men reported in her travelling party were her husband, a technician/handyman who stayed and a technician who came only to install the x-ray machine. The orderlies and drivers that came with the travelling party were female, and I assume there were local men that helped out in a non-medical capacity.

[horatio2]

Interesting. @KizmeRD has cited the clear evidence from Admiralty records (ADM 171) that, in 1920, the Naval Personnel (NP) Division of the Admiralty ordered (NP II 1820/20) that they were not entitled to the 1914 Star Clasp and the medal roll shows that three claims for the Clasp  were "Refused", in keeping with that stated policy.

I contrast we have the unsupported statement from @smiller that "... they were later issued through the navy." [When?] Medals were issued by and on claim to the Admiralty, not by the Royal Navy. It also seems strange that the ADM 171 records were not up-dated (to reflect this purported change of Admirtalty policy and late issue) as numerous entries were in the post-WW1 years. The 1914 Star Medal Roll was 'live' at the Admiralty through most of the inter-war years.

I place no special credence in the auction house blurb for Dr Hanson's medals. Nor am I persuaded by the fact that one hundred years later three sets of medals have, by invisible authority, acquired a Clasp.

Edited 4 April , 2023 by horatio2

[smiller]

32 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Interesting. @KizmeRD has cited the clear evidence from Admiralty records (ADM 171) that, in 1920, the Naval Personnel (NP) Division of the Admiralty ordered (NP II 1820/20) that they were not entitled to the 1914 Star Clasp and the medal roll shows that three claims for the Clasp  were "Refused", in keeping with that stated policy.

I contrast we have the unsupported statement from @smiller that "... they were later issued through the navy." [When?] Medals were issued by and on claim to the Admiralty, not by the Royal Navy. It also seems strange that the ADM 171 records were not up-dated (to reflect this purported change of Admirtalty policy and late issue) as numerous entries were in the post-WW1 years. The 1914 Star Medal Roll was 'live' at the Admiralty through most of the inter-war years.

I place no special credence in the auction house blurb for Dr Hanson's medals. Nor am I persuaded by the fact that one hundred years later three sets of medals have, by invisible authority, aquired a Clasp.

I’m not suggesting the Medals and Clasps were issued separately and I have always assumed they were issued together but stand to be corrected on this. I believe the Stobart Hospital staff were initially denied medals but then were issued them through the navy/admiralty.

[horatio2]

27 minutes ago, smiller said:

I have always assumed they were issued together but stand to be corrected on this.

As @KizmeRD has noted, the Stars were issued to the three ladies in person between 5 June and 26 Augst 1919 some six months after applications were first called for by the Admiralty. In contrast, after Royal aproval of the Clasp in December 1919, the Admiralty did not call for Clasp applications until 23 June 1920. There can thus be no possibility of Stars and Clasps having been issued together.

[KizmeRD]

@smiller My apologies, the three doctors attached to Mrs Stobart’s Womens’ Imperial Service hospital in Antwerp were indeed female, I must have been getting them confused with the staff of the other auxiliary hospital established  during the siege, that was a mixed unit (the 1st British Field Hospital).

18 hours ago, smiller said:

I beg to differ about the clasp 

At first they were denied the medals but they were later issued through the navy. Perhaps it is Tully's family that don't know about her medals.

I attach a photo of Carrie's medal with the rosette on the full medal. I recall the rosette is worn when not in uniform. The family weren't the sort of people that would have added the clasp. I believe that I'm the only one that has replicas (of the full set), and that's because of the condition the originals are in.

I also note than when Dr Helen Hanson's medals were advertised for sale in 2012, the photo shows the clasp and the text says she was entitled to the clasp..

 

1. Kindly explain why you beg to differ, is it just an opinion, or can you point to anything substantive?

2. I really hope that the Admiralty did eventually alter their rulings regarding the entitlement of the Antwerp hospital staff to the clasp, but again, do you have any documentary evidence of this being the case?

3. Is your recollection regarding the rosette perhaps a little incorrect? Would it not be more accurate to say that the rosette is for display on the ribbon when only medal ribbons (alone) are worn, whereas the clasp properly attaches to the ribbon suspending the actual medal?

4. I’m not disputing that the clasp appeared on Dr Helan Hanson’s 1914 Star when they were put up for auction in 2012. My only doubt is whether or not the clasp was ever officially issued to her at the time (or to any of the others). Currently we only have documentary evidence that it wasn’t.

MB

Edited 5 April , 2023 by KizmeRD

[smiller]

19 hours ago, horatio2 said:

As @KizmeRD has noted, the Stars were issued to the three ladies in person between 5 June and 26 Augst 1919 some six months after applications were first called for by the Admiralty. In contrast, after Royal aproval of the Clasp in December 1919, the Admiralty did not call for Clasp applications until 23 June 1920. There can thus be no possibility of Stars and Clasps having been issued together.

Thanks for that clarification. I’m curious about the medals being issued in person when they were in different countries.

[smiller]

Sorry @KizmeRD, I don’t have the proof about the clasps you request. Given the problems with the records I won’t be spending much time on looking for such proof, but happy to pass it on if/when found.

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, smiller said:

Thanks for that clarification. I’m curious about the medals being issued in person when they were in different countries.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting here that the medal was presented in person (face-to face) to the recipient, only meant to imply that the medal (1914 Star) was issued to ‘party’ i.e sent (mailed) to the individual named. This tells us that it was the recipient who applied for and received the medal, rather than it being a next-of-kin (in the case of awards to deceased persons).

MB

 

Edited 5 April , 2023 by KizmeRD