Frederick Linsdell - Essex Regiment?

[Guest Karen Moore]

Hello

I haven't had any replies to my latest posts with photos attached.

I was wondering whether it would be in order to me to post a message on the medals forum referring people to my posts on this forum. I would like to try and identify my grandfather's cap badge. It looks (to me) as though it may bear some resemblance to the Prince of Wales' feathers.

Many thanks.

Karen

[GrandsonMichael]

Hi Karen,

Thanks for posting the photographs.

I was just in the process of trying to identify the cap badge, or rather the opposite.

To me it certainly does not look like a cap badge of the Essex Regiment. I've got my Grandfather's badge under my nose at the moment. See attachment.

That's about as far as I can get. Was trying to acess a capbadgewebsite but it's off line....

There are experts running around this Forum somewhere. Might be a good idea to repost your question specifically under identification of cap badge here on this Forum: Uniforms, arms, insignia, equipment, medals.

And no doubt, as you proposed on the medals forum.

Good hunting!

Cheers,

Michael

[Graham Stewart]

Karen,

I think you'll probably find the cap badge is the Cambridgeshire Regt.

Graham.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

I concur with Graham Cambridgeshire Regiment,The Essex Regiment were encamped @ Peterborough in 1915/16 & a Number of Essex Men transferred to them.Consequently their Essex Regiment Details would not necassarily appear on there MiCs,only later postings.

There is only one Lindsell/Linsell/Lindsel on the Index Cards for Cambridgeshire Regiment~~ Ernest W. Lindsell 8033~ Cambs Rgt

later A/200620 KRRC{possibly after recouperation in hospital}

[Guest Karen Moore]

Once again, very many thanks to all for the continuing help and support.

Please could I now ask you to consider the following:

There is only information relating to one Frederick Linsdell (the spelling that my mother considers to be correct) in the Medal Cards Index.

London Regiment 2939 Private

Suffolk Regiment 330699 Private

The consensus of opinion is that my grandfather's cap badge is that of the Cambridgeshire Regiment.

Steve has suggested that the above number suggests a Cambridgeshire Regiment man with a Suffolk man's number/regiment moniker.

Harry has said that the Essex Regiment (the regiment suggested by my mother)encamped at Peterborough in 1915/16 and a number of Essex men transferred to them and therefore the Essex Regiment details would not necessarily appear on the Medal Index Card, only those of later postings.

Does this mean that it is possible that this man is my grandfather? Would this man have been in Egypt and at the Somme?

And could someone please explain the following:

Why does the London Regiment number consist of four figures and the Suffolk Regiment number have six figures?

Why are two different regiments shown when it has already been suggested that a transfer between the Essex and the Suffolk would possibly only result in one of those regiments appearing on the Medal Index Card?

What does Steve's suggestion about a Cambridgeshire man with a Suffolk man's number/regiment actually mean? ie how/why would that happen?

And finally, if I pay to view the Medal Cards Index, what information can I expect to find on there?

Sorry to ask so many questions. But this has turned out to be a fascinating quest and I would really like to learn as much as possible and be in the possession of the fullest possible facts.

Regards to all

Karen

[Graham Stewart]

Karen,

Not an easy one to answer if you not really familiar with the Army and it's way's.

The Cambridgeshire Regiment was purely a Territorial Force regiment and had no regular army battalions and so it's numbering sequence was in line with Territorial Force regulations i.e. number from 1 - 9999. Once used up start again.

That was fine until the WWI and in 1917 all Territorial Battalions including the London Regiment, which had been using four figure regimental numbers were issued with a new six figure number. Now at some time he's been transferred from one to the other, before the 1917 change over from four to six figure numbers.

Now's here's the complicated bit. The Cambridgeshire Regt wasn't given it's own block of new six figure numbers, for reasons that are beyond me at present they were actually issued six figure numbers from the Suffolk Regt series. This series of numbers went as such;-

4th Bn Suffolk Regt new numbers - 200001 to 240000

5th Bn Suffolk Regt new numbers - 240001 to 265000

6th(Cyclist)Bn Suffolk Regt new numbers - 265001 to 290000

14th Bn Suffolk Regt new numbers - 290001 to 315000

Suffolk Regt new numbers series 315001 to 340000 issued to Cambridgeshire Regt personnel.

Therefore he's Cambridgeshire Regt issued with a Suffolk Regt number.

Graham.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The Cambridgeshire Regiment was always closely affiliated to the Suffolk Regiment,historically & geographically,as having no regular Battalions of its own,Men from the county {Cambridgeshire} often chose to enlist into the Suffolk Regiment,pre WW1,as Regulars,the proximity giving a good supply of Recruits,the old 3rd Volunteer Battalion of the Suffolk Regt,became the 1st Cambridgeshire Regiment ;TF;in 1908 upon the inaugaration of the Territorial Force[TF]

On the evidence now presented it would begin to appear that Steve's {Stebie} suggestion of the London Regiment enlistee who became Suffolk Regt TF,{with a Cambridgeshire Regt Number} is looking more & more like your man;again he may well have been posted into the Cambs @ the time of his Photograph,but then transferred to a Suffolk Battalion for Overseas Service {The Cambs & Suffolks tended to draw men from the same source & post within the two Regiments,the Suffolks being a sort of proxy Parent Regiment to them

With regard to the MiC that may well be your best bet,especially if he was awarded a 1914~15 Star as it should give a date of entry & code to Theatre of War,so if it was Egypt that would be confirmed{however it is unlikely that a ToW will be entered if he only received the War & Victory Medals},If he was discharged that would should be noted & hopefully a Silver War Badge Roll page number given,which will give a bit more information,if from that a Record of Service could be located for this Man @ the NA[if it is amongst those odd 30% or so, that survive] that should confirm or deny if in fact he is the man you seek,as a Date of Birth & usually a Place of Birth & Home address is given,It looks like you are getting there...Good Luck.

[Guest Karen Moore]

Many thanks for the replies. Especially the explanations about the Cambridgeshire/Suffolk regiments which have greatly increased my understanding and will make explaining things to other family members much easier.

I have viewed the Medal Card for Frederick Linsdell.

There appears to be very little information on it.

Under 'Corps' it states '10 London R' and '11 Suffolk R'. Presumably 10th London and 11th Suffolk?

Under 'Medal', 'Roll' and 'Page' there is 'Victory', 'K/1/104 B/2' (or might be 8/2), and 288.

On the line beneath where it says 'British' it shows broken lines under 'Roll' and 'Page'. I am not sure whether this means 'ditto' or not. (On another card on the same page it states 'do' which obviously does mean ditto). On the line beneath that (where it says 'Star') the 'Roll' and 'Page' columns have been left blank.

The only other information appears a couple of lines below that and I am unable to read it. There is what may be two words - the second one possibly being 'list' - and then 'K/21001/1.

If anyone could enlighten me about the information on the card then I would be most grateful.

I should also like to know how I would go about finding out whether my grandfather's service records still exist.

Finally, can anyone recommend a good source of information (website/book) in relation to the 10th London and 11th Suffolk and the role they played in WW1.

Very many thanks.

Karen

[Stebie9173]

Right Karen.

The 10th Londons were 54th Division : Gallipoli 1915, Egypt 1916, Sinai 1916 and Palestine 1917. Check!

The 11th Suffolks were a New Army battalion, not a TF one. He shouldn't have had that number with them. I imagine what COULD have happened is that he went to Egypt to reinforce the 10th Londons after Gallipoli (it was evacuated January 1916), served in egypt and perhaps Sinai, returned home from Egypt (injured/whatever) and went into the Cambridgeshire Regiment (but not just yet with the 11th Suffolks and possibly not with the 1/1st in France, instead with the one of the "2nd Line"/Reserve/UK based battalions. At 1.3.1917, he was renumbered. Sometime after that he went to France with the 11th Suffolks.

It also explains why he has a cambs number with a Suffolks regiment name on the MIC. Becuase he was technically in the Suffolk Regiment (affiliated to be exact), when he went to the 11th Suffolks, he had not "changed regiment", so he retained the number given to him in the Cambs TF.

They were at Arras in early 1917, Ypres in late 1917, then involved in the 1st day of the German Spring Offensive on 21st April 1918.

Funnily enough, one of my Brooksbank great-uncles was in 54th Division in Egypt and another in the 11th Suffolks who went out to France in April 1917. I wonder if Frederick knew both? He may have even gone overseas with Percy in the 11th Suffolks... (Ok, so 54th Division was the best part of 20,000 men, unlikely I know...)

Ditto will be correct.

The lack of a 1914-15 star means he went overseas after 1-1-1916.

The List item will be SWB List - Silver War Badge (which references to Medal Rolls at the NA which will give date of enlistment & discharge + maybe other info.) Men who were discharged as unfit for further duty got an SWB.

As for websites, this one gives a nice overview:

http://www.curme.co.uk/102.htm#Cambs%20Suf...esource%20Guide

However, as Croonaert reminded me on my (limited as yet) research, it is only a summary...

(In the list of 970 Casualties, 9 have a Cambridgeshire TF number allocated to them at the time of their death, 1917 & 1918)

I do have copies of the War Diary for March and April 1918. Though I doubt Frederick Lindsell will be mentioned, I can let you have a copy... PM me your e-mail if you want.

The rest is available online at £3.50 a month. (at least you wont need anything before March 1917)

It's looking promising, isn't it?

Phew!

Steve.

P.S. I'm hoping to get down to the NA soon and the 11th Suffolks War Diary is likely to be on the list of things to check...

P.P.S. Just to confuse matters, and so I kept it to the end, the 11th Suffolks were actually known as the Cambridgeshire-Suffolks!

[Stebie9173]

This DCM note from the above website is interesting:

Acting Sergeant W.J. Matthews. (326837. Originally with Cambs Reg't. Transferred to Cambs Suffolks after 5.1917). LG 3 Oct 1918. (now 2 Lt) W J Matthews MM, Suff R. (From Trumpington.) "For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during an attack. When his platoon commander had been killed and his platoon were being pressed back he rallied and led forward 2 sections under heavy machine gun fire, and maintained the position for 36 hours until ordered to withdraw. This prompt and gallant action enabled the whole company to hold its line."

Was there a single transfer of men from the Cambs TF or would it have been a slow transfer of men as needed, I wonder?

Steve.

[Graham Stewart]

Stebie,

The 11th(Service)Bn, Suffolk Regt(Cambridgeshire);-

The 11th Suffolks were officially known as the "Cambridgeshire" Battalion, as they had been raised at Cambridge on 25/9/1914 by the Cambridgeshire and Isle of Ely T.F.Association. So it's probably the reason why Cambridgeshire Regt(T.F.) lads were being drafted into it.

Other associations between the two regiments exist when the 5th(Reserve)Bn, Suffolk Regt(T.F.) & 1st(Reserve)Bn, Cambridgeshire(T.F.) were merged on 23/7/1917, as the Cambridgeshire & Suffolk Reserve Battalion.

In 1961 the amalgamation between the two Territorial Army elements became permanent as the Suffolk & Cambridgeshire Regt.

Graham.

[cliff brown]

I hadn't followed this thread, but the other one under uniforms, where you asked about the cap badge. See my replyu there..

Linsdell Frederick, Walthamstow, 330699. Formerly 2939 10th London. Trans 11th Suffolk, w Off List 16-7-18 & w Off List 1-10-18 & w Off List 3-12-18.

Many men from the Cambs & Suffolk Res Btn, The Suffolk Rgt (an amalgamation of reserve btns of both Cambs Rgt and Suffolk Rgt) ended up in Suffolks, particularly 11th btn.

[Guest Karen Moore]

Cliff

Very many thanks for the information.

I think this must confirm without doubt that the man in the London and Cambridgeshire regiments was my grandfather as, although born in Islington, he married and raised his family in Walthamstow.

Am I correct in understanding that this information came from an official list of men who were wounded? And that the date is the date of the list and not the date of the incident?

Also, where did you obtain this information? Is it on the web or published in a book?

Sorry for so many questions but I am a complete novice!!

Regards

Karen

[cliff brown]

They are indeed the dates his name appeared in the War Office weekly casualty lists (which were probably used by the newspapers, such as The Times, to extract their local men) & not the date wounded. The lists were about a month out of date and were not listed under an individual battalion, but by regiment. All Suffolk Rgt casualties on one list. I believe this is available at the British Library and several other major libraries, such as Cambridge University Library.

If you check The Times (often available on microfilm at big libraries near the dates mentioned) you should find him under Suffolk Rgt.

It would be great if the War Office weekly casualty lists were made available on line. I believe some pals have searched The Times online with some success regarding their printed casualty lists.

[Stebie9173]

Check out yout local library website for computer access to the Times Online Archive for the period.

Some libraries have a subscription to this. You just type in your library card number.

For example, Northamptonshire Libraries do, Cambridgeshire do not. I'm just inside Cambridgeshire on the Northants border. Grrr...

Steve.

[cliff brown]

The main central library in Cambridge has The Times on microfilm.