Crucifixion of a Canadian Soldier

[Hedley Malloch]

As others have said war, and it seems training for war, can be a charter for a certain minority regardles of race, with pyschopathic tendancies, be it 1915 or now.

Wars are about violence and violence, by its very nature, cannot be precisely controlled. Some of it will end up in places it was not intended to go and inflicted on people other than those it was aimed at. Further, for the most part, the people who commit it are not psychopaths, but ordinary people who in other contexts would not hurt a fly. Violence in war is banal and quotidien; there is nothing exceptional about it.

[paul guthrie]

Some of you seem to me to doubt the extent at least of the German atrocities and I wish you would read the book I mentioned. It won our WFA USA prize for the best book of the year on Great War subject in English. The panel which chooses the bood is extremely qualified, incredibly informative book. There really is no room for doubt any more.

[AOK4]

Paul,

I do not doubt the extent of the crimes committed by the Germans, it's only that one has to see everything in his context. And one must not forget the use of the crimes by the allied propaganda.

I heard one of the authors in Brussels in 2001 and I plan to read the book.

However, having read lots of German (original) diaries and some of their publications about this matter, I tend to believe that there was "something" which made the Germans react in such a cruel manner, were it rear guards of the Belgians/French, were it civilians, were it (in certain cases) friendly fire.

It seems (according to what I heard in Brussels) that the book wanted to show that the Germans committed the crimes for no reason, that the "Frank-Tireure" were in fact a mass hallucination. I would not want to go that far.

But, as I said before, I have to read the book thoroughly before I say more about this.

Jan

[Tim Birch]

I accept that soldiers have always, and will always carry out acts of revenge and cruelty when their blood is up in the heat of battle. But this is different from rounding up dozens of civilians for execution. That takes time and thought. The "heat of war" excuse might apply to "heat of the moment" actions; anything else becomes calculated and premeditated. When your man "who wouldn't hurt a fly" becomes involved in that sort of action history finds it harder to excuse him.

[paul guthrie]

Jan,

The book shoots some really big holes in the franc tiruers argument. There was enormous debate about this during the war as the Germans tried to counter allied propaganda. There just isn't any evidence. The best that can be said is there was panic among troops who had been frequently warned about them. They had also been trained that any resistance by civilians was illegal which the book explains quite well is not true if they were organized and obeyed the common rules of war.

THere were mass executions; priests were targeted too. Human shields were used, deportations, just amazing. Because the allies invented some incidents - crucifixion- it has entered our collective memory that atrocities were non existent or slight. Far from the truth. The book also points out there is no longer serious dispute in Germany itself.

[egbert]

Paul,

I really can't believe it - are you realy so trivial as you write? Boy o boy, Paul, yes the Germans committed war crimes, a lot of war crimes in 4 years - and so did the British, the French etc etc. Do you intend to compare one on one ( or tenthousand on thousend)? I can tell you from my standpoint: each and every war crime is one crime too much!!!! You read a great English written book on German war crimes? Wow, how many original German books on allied war crimes did you read??? I am sick and tired to "justify", "defend" and "blame the one side or the other side"on Hiroshimas, Franktireurs or Dresdens.....just accept the fact, that in each war unfortunately war crimes happen and will happen and need to be prevented . And - it is our common responsibility, at least in our civilized countries, to educate and teach the coming generations about Geneva Convention.

I was actual very satisfied in this thread upon the realistic point of view of all the British and Belgian correspondents. And now comes a fellow American with the old black and white point of view!?

By the way, I am the descendant of a Grandfather hun , who was killed in action by a British dum- dum projectile banned by the Geneva Convention. But this is in no way a reason for me to blame somebody of being a war criminal. It was an unfortunate time with lots of war crimes Period

[paul guthrie]

Just read the book and attempt to remain temperate.

[Paul Reed]

No one side has a monoply over the other, when it comes to war crimes. For a start, how do we even define 'war crimes' - that is a debate in its own right.

The Allies are far from being whiter than white, in either war. I met plenty of WW1 veterans who related incidents of the massacre of prisoners; and not in the heat of battle. The CEF launched a battle on 8th August 1918 called 'Operation Llandovery Castle'; this was the name of a hospital ship sunk by the Germans on which a number of Canadian nurses died. It was General Currie's subtle way of telling his troops to take no prisoners in this battle - and few were taken.

When you read APM war diaries, the number of French civillians being shot for spying is quite alarming.

War is hell ; war is brutal; the victors get to tell their side of the story.

There was an excellent article in the Observer this weekend about how WW2 history is becoming obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis; ten years of German history eclipses 60 years of peace in Germany. Quite incredible.

[egbert]

Having just read Paul Reeds posting above, I am convinced that we are all (in this forum) on the same track. Since this is a British run forum, I am especially grateful of the overall objectivism of all correspondants towards the war crimes on any side. Yes indeed, no one has a monopoly over the other. If this message is understood= its already a great victory over war crimes - at least in our small hemisphere! And to Paul Guthrie: I believe you share the same point of view , you just have to understand that I am allergic to one-side-views. Probably I will never have access to the book you mentioned ( I still have about 200 unread German books from the 20s to deal with and by the way written in Suetterlin, which is difficult to decipher), but that's not necessary for the subject of war crimes: again, nobody puts into question all the horrible war crimes on all sides.

[Guest Hill 60]

I was once asked what made a War Criminal. I pondered the question and answered with the normal things such as killing dozens of civilians for no real reason etc. My friend said 'No' to each answer I gave, he said what makes a War Criminal is being on the losing side.

[paul guthrie]

Well that helps but try the Japanese in the '30s and WW2. Yes that's an extreme example but recent.

I know it's really hard to draw lines here but international bodies had tried prior to WW1. Yes both sides killed prisoners and I have no reason to believe Germans were worse. But, somehow that seems much more understandable than execution of civilians in numbers as collective punishment, human shields, mass deportation... Those things also seem worse to me than the execution of a single civilian thought to be a spy although with the slimmest of evidence.

More than trying to start a debate here though it's welcome, I wanted people to read the book because until you do it's unlikely you realize the extent of these atrocities and I have not mentioned Louvain until now, nor Edith Cavell, those are not allied propaganda and this book does discuss things that were.

I do recognize that Germany was the only western front combatant that occupied substantial enemy territory , who knows how much a factor that was? Until you read this you may not realize how much these men's pre war training had to do with it either.

[Guest Hill 60]

I am well aware of what the Japanese did in WWII. My Great Uncle Percy (5833402 Pte Bradbury, 5th Suffolks) was captured at Singapore and died in Changi whilst working on their blasted railway.

I grew up in a family who hated the Japanese for what they did. I have relatives who, even now, celebrate what they call 'Hiroshima Day', not very PC I must admit!

I'll have a look at the book mentioned but I agree with Paul Reed's last posting that if we look deeply enough we'll find that the Allies weren't whiter than white.

I just hope I live long enough to read all the books on my 'Books I Must Read' list that has grown enormously since I joined this Forum!!

[Hedley Malloch]

I accept that soldiers have always, and will always carry out acts of revenge and cruelty when their blood is up in the heat of battle. But this is different from rounding up dozens of civilians for execution. (snip) When your man "who wouldn't hurt a fly" becomes involved in that sort of action history finds it harder to excuse him.

The problem it is often impossible for an occupying power to distinguish between civilians and soldiers. The occupying power has to suppress resistance irrespective of its source and for them it is often impossible to distinguish between soldiers, civilians, resistance and guerillas. The US found this out in Vietnam (My Lai?) - and may be about to rediscover it in Iraq.

Wouldn't hurt a fly? Armies are organisations which process individuals so they instantly obey mindless instructions ('bull'); remove any sense of personal responsibility from them ('I was only following orders'); employ draconian systems of discipline to ensure conformance (shot at dawn); and subject their members to uniquely horrible experiences such as seeing all your mates brutally killed before breakfast. Add to this heady mix a dehumanised nun-raping and baby-bayonetting enemy and ordinary people will behave like psychopaths towards the enemy. Remove them from this context and they become sidesmen in your local church and volunteers in the Oxfam shop.

[brownag]

I would have thought that since Sgt Band was in the 16th Bn CEF he would have been wearing a kilt, but no mention was made of that in the eye-witness testimonies even from the American VC winner serving in a Canadian Scottish unit. A bit strange I would have thought. And if someone got close enough to see that he had Canadian insignia on, on his collar or shoulder straps, then why did they leave him hanging there?

The identity of the crucified soldier appeared in a Scottish Sunday newspaper last year because of Harry Band's Scottish connection. (I think it may have been the 'Scotland on Sunday') so its not particularly new news.

[Joe Sweeney]

This subject was somewhat debated on a Canadian Forum a few weeks ago. I mean by "somewhat debated" by the fact that one of the curators of the 48th Highlanders Museum chimed in and gave some very pertinent answers concerning the producers of the show.

Serg't Harry Band was a member of the 15th Bn and a pre-war member of the 48th having volunteered directly from the 48th in 1914.

Actually his attestation papers are on line at the Canadian Archives,

The curator is an Art Johnson and this is what he had to say:

"I was contacted by the producers of Tiger Productions last year about this. They are producing a show for the History Channel which generally covers German Army attrocities commited in Belgium during WW I. I assume this article is the beginning of a PR campaign about the up comming show.

When our museum and the Canadian War Museum showed no interest in supporting their suposition they broke off contact with us and cancelled a meeting in Toronto. I believe they did go to Montreal.

There is no proof that this event ever happened and certainly none that the supposed victim was Sgt. Harry Band.

The producers were kind enough to send me copies of sworn statements that they have copies of and none of them agree with each other. One describes the man as having a Canadian Forage cap with a Maple Leaf badge, that certainly wouldn't be a 48th badge. Another said that he could see no evidence of a kilt. One of the men who made a statement was described as an unreliable soldier.

This story comes up every now and then usually around Easter but there is no proper evidence to support it ever happening."

Joe Sweeney

[egbert]

I hope it is not too late for the following posting: in surfing the web, I discovered a remarkable article from an academic journal which examines the level of Germany's exploitation of the Belgians during the First World War. The essay in toto is indeed very interesting, but with special attention to this forum thread upon statements of German atrocities. For that, scroll down aproximately half way to "III.SOCIAL AND MILITARY POLICY".

This is the url of the web site "German Policy in Occupied Belgium, 1914-1918 ":

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journals/EH/...9/menich39.html

[Alan Lines]

Found this in a local Winchester newspaper today dated 22nd May 1915.

LETTERS FROM THE FRONT

Pte. C.E Camplisson, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry writes to a friend at Winchester "We have had an awfully cutting up at Ypres. There are only about 190 men and four officers left of the original Battalion. My little partner, Sergt. Handley, is wounded, as also Borthwick and Benson, and others too numerous to mention. Heavy fighting is still going on. This war is hell, if there is such a place. Our fellows found one of our sergeants nailed to a door like Christ; also three of our men hanged in the German trenches."

[AOK4]

Hm, I wouldn't believe the story...

Look, I can believe that some soldiers were stabbed or shot in attacks or trench raids, even when they wanted to surrender (on both sides), but why would anyone want to crucify a soldier? The German soldiers were (mostly) ordinary people, just like most of the allied soldiers. Do you think no officer, NCO or fellow soldiers would intervene if someone tried to hang or crucify an allied soldier?

German soldiers had the utmost respect for their enemies. They buried them on their own cemeteries (sometimes together in mass graves) and took very good care for those graves too (something that can't always be said about the opposite, especially after the war).

Jan

[Annette Burgoyne]

Pte. C.E Camplisson, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, may be referring to the 8th May 1915, as the Official History of the war records that by the time of its relieve during the night of 8th May the PPCLI had been reduced to 4 officers and 150 other ranks.

The PPCLI were part of 80th Brigade, 27th Division, which also included the 2/K.S.L.I..

I have a copy of the diary of Pte. 6715, Charles Frederick, Lord of the 2/KSLI, now the diary starts on the 27th April, but many of his entries have no dates and I believe that he wrote it up at the end of May, that is why there are no dates for some entries, plus some entries seem to be out of context, but never the less one of his entries records that they (KSLI) relieved the PPCLI and that the Canadians had nearly been wiped out stating “When the roll was called that night 153 answered their names out of 1100. The same night the Canadians went out to bury their dead comrades and what a shock they got. The enemy had cut everyone's throat and stripped them of their clothing”.

Pte. Lord, makes no mention of hanged Canadians, and he was in a position to know, as he was one of the K.S.L.I.’s Telegraphist and spent a lot of time at Batt. H.Q.

Now the sergeant nailed to a door like Christ, as report in others posts referred to the Canadians in St. Julien area, the PPCLI were never in this area during the 2nd Battle of Ypres.

I can not go into much detail because I am still working on the 2/K.S.L.I.’s history, I have not yet looked into all the available sources. I am in two minds about the crucified Canadian at St. Julien but I do not believe the story about the three hanged Canadians in Pte. C.E Camplisson letter to the newspaper (not unless someone can give more evidence), I am also not sure about the Germans cutting the throats of the PPCLI in Pte. Lords diary but there is evidence that the Germans took British uniforms. The KSLI’s Regimental History records that the Germans attacked on the 9th May, and some of them were wearing British uniforms, and came on shouting to our men, the 2nd KSLI took no notice and continued to fire but the Royal Fusiliers, however, ceased firing for a about twenty seconds. Now as I have stated I have not looked into all available sources of information, I have not yet looked at the 2nd Battalions War Diary.

[AOK4]

Hello Annette,

The Germans took everything from the dead (also from their own) which could still be of use. These things were then "recycled" and used again in some form. I know of an order that stated (in 1914) that the dead should be buried only wearing their trousers, all the rest had to be taken and collected to be repaired and used again.

About the use of British uniforms by the Germans: do you think any German would attack in British clothes and take the risk being shot by his comrades?

I'll check my German regimental histories tomorrow and see if I find anything more about this matter.

Jan

[Jacky Platteeuw]

I can only agree with Annette. The PPCLI was never, during 2nd Ypres, even close to St. Julien. They were indeed almost whiped out on the 8th of May during the Battle of Frezenberg. Their sector was at Hooge near Lake Wood.

However I do think that in the sentence "Our fellows found one of our sergeants nailed to a door like Christ; also three of our men hanged in the German trenches." the word fellows could be interpretated as 'fellow Canadians' which would give a possible explanation of the PPCLI men, and others, hearing about the story. Personally I think that is exactly how myths and legends are born. By this I don't say that this story never happened.

Jacky

[Alan Lines]

Something I should have added. The tone of the newspaper (as would be expected) was for want of a better word very patriotic. Most weeks during this period there is a letter form Pte. Atkins telling readers what a great time they are having in the trenches sticking it to the hun etc. etc. There were also reports of German atrocities around this time. Therefore this letter would have been considered excellent material for the paper, despite the "war is hell" sentence. I was actually a little surprised they didn't make more of it.

Clearly it doesn't prove anything one way or another.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jan

I can see your point about the risk of being shot by their own comrades by mistake but that may not rule it out.

Jan can you tell which German units faced the 27th British Division around this time

Regards

Annette

[AOK4]

It was mainly the German 54. Reserve-Division. (north of Hooge).

Jan

[Annette Burgoyne]

Thanks Jan for info.

Annette