Tyne Cot

[Greenwoodman]

Yes, but not immediately adjacent to the largest CWGC cemetery in Europe! Is it really appropriate to have a visitors centre for a cemetry.

Does this apply to the visitor centre now under way at Thiepval, a memorial and a cemetery? Thiepval attracts more visitors than any other site in the Somme Department.

[bohpal]

The most widely visited cemetery in Europe is the ABMC one at St. Laurent sur mer in Normandy.

Yes it does have a visitors centre, a toilet and a very large car park. It also has been built in the best possible taste.

NOTHING, but NOTHING is allowed to detract from the real purpose of the site. The graves and other memorials to the dead are paramount. None of the three facilities are visible from the graves. They do not sell coffee at the small visitors center. The toilets are clean, wholesome and free (are you listening in Belgium?). The car parking has a separately designated area for coaches.

Obviously the cemetery overlooks one extremity of Omaha Beach. Whislt there are diaoramas outlining the progress of WWII in Europe, the whole thing is in extremely good taste. It has the advantage of being built as an integrated site. It would almost certainly not be possible to do this at Tyne Cot as an afterthought.

By all means build a toilet block and a car park in the area - but NOT immediately adjacent to and in sight of the cemetery.

Given the genrally run down appearance of the village of Passchendale, I would have thought that a visitors centre would be much more relevant in the village that was the raison d'etre of the battle. The cemetery is the result, not the cause!

I have not challenged the right of the Belgians to build as they choose OUTSIDE the area of the CWGC cemeteries. In this particular case the challenge is to their common sense and good taste.

Can I also suggest that tnat the use of the word "paranoia" is totally inapropriate describe the views of those who would rather not see dead soldiers disturbed to build yet another industrial estate or motorway!

It has been said before and it will certainly be said again that the Belgians are in grave danger of killing the goose that is laying their golden egg.

45594

[bohpal]

[

"Does this apply to the visitor centre now under way at Thiepval, a memorial and a cemetery? "

You seem to have missed the point. Either that or you just don't know where the Thiepval visitors Centre is to be in relation to the Memorial and SEVERAL cemetries in the area.

Where ignorance is bliss etc.

45594

[Greenwoodman]

You seem to have missed the point. Either that or you just don't know where the Thiepval visitors Centre is to be in relation to the Memorial and SEVERAL cemetries in the area.

Where ignorance is bliss etc.

Having visited the site of the Thiepval Visitor Centre in the company of one of the ladies of the village, I think I probably am well aware of where its going to be. But never let the facts get in the way of a sneering, aggressive and anonymous post.

Point being that there will be a visitor centre at Thiepval in spite of your comment "Is it really appropriate to have a visitors centre for a cemetry".

Next nearest cemetery is at least a kilometre away.

The facilities at Tyne Cot are going to be built behind the cemetery, meaning behind the screen wall of the memorial, the rear of which is the least attractive part of the cemetery seen during the approach from the main road.

An although you claim to know a great deal about the proposed Tyne Cot facilities, you did not know, and could not be bothered to find out, that the CWGC had been consulted. Fortunately there are much better-informed members of this forum.

[bohpal]

Point being that there will be a visitor centre at Thiepval in spite of your comment "Is it really appropriate to have a visitors centre for a cemetry".

Next nearest cemetery is at least a kilometre away.

Your personal rudeness simply confirms my belief about your ignorance. You do not have to go out of your way to prove it

The visitor center at Thiepval is being built to tell the story of the Somme. Thiepval being a very appropriate place.

It is not being built at the "back end" of the memorial or immediately adjacent to a cemetery.

You should look more closely at the walls at the rear of Tyne Cot. The names on them are not just graffiti.

As regards the CWGC I have read nothing that suggests that they agree wholheartedly with the plan. The actual words used by Mr. Sercu suggest that at least one of the parties to the discussion was not in agreement. I wonder which one that was?

45594

[Greenwoodman]

Your personal rudeness simply confirms my belief about your ignorance. You do not have to go out of your way to prove it

The visitor center at Thiepval is being built to tell the story of the Somme. Thiepval being a very appropriate place.

It is not being built at the "back end" of the memorial or immediately adjacent to a cemetery.

You should look more closely at the walls at the rear of Tyne Cot. The names on them are not just graffiti.

As regards the CWGC I have read nothing that suggests that they agree wholheartedly with the plan. The actual words used by Mr. Sercu suggest that at least one of the parties to the discussion was not in agreement. I wonder which one that was?

45594

Let's take your points one by one shall we?

Personal rudeness? - check back a couple of posts - "Where ignorance is bliss", and you don't seem concerned enough about rudeness being posted not to repeat it in the quote above.

Thiepval - you ask if I knew where it is, and when answered that I do know where it is switch the argument to the purpose of the centre. Why was that?

Rear walls of Tyne Cot - if you read my post accurately you would see that I refer to the rear of the rear wall, which amazingly enough is just blank concrete.

And as regards the party not in agreement with the discussion, do enlighten the forum as to which party it is. Or is that something else you cannot be bothered to research? An e-mail to CWGC would I'm sure bring you an answer which you could share with the forum - try neaoffice@cwgc.org - the Northern Europe Area Office in Ieper.

And guess what - still anonymous!

[AOK4]

Bohpal, whoever you are, please use a civilized tone when speaking on this forum, think twice before you post or we will be forced to take actions. I think all of us know exactly how sensitive everything is. I personally visit Tyne Cot at least 15 times a year with groups and visitors and I think the project as a whole, being agreed upon also by the CWGC will probably be an improvement.

Your sentence "Can I also suggest that tnat the use of the word "paranoia" is totally inapropriate describe the views of those who would rather not see dead soldiers disturbed to build yet another industrial estate or motorway!" is also particularly not appropriate towards the Belgian folks here. The Ypres Salient is also a place where people live and try to make a living. I agree that there should be the utmost respect for the dead, but usually and within certain borders, the living people have a priority.

Jan

[Guest Simon Bull]

I find myself puzzled by the opposition to this development. Assuming it is to be carried out sensitively (which would appear likely) we ought to be grateful that the Belgians kindly see fit to expend substantial sums of their public money on providing facilities whcih our government ought to have provided years ago. I regard the lack of proper toilet facitlites at the major cemeteries as not just an inconvenience to visitors (not inconsiderable, particualry for older or disabled visitors) but something of an affront to those commemorated.

In addition, I would have thought that moving parking to behind the cemetery will substantially enhance it.

Finally (and perhaps controversially), if I can buy a cup of coffee and a bun at a nearby place whcih does not in any way interfere with the view of the cemetery or its peacefulness, what is the harm in that? I somehow think that those whom we "visit" would not begrudge us such conveniences. Is a hair shirt neccesary to proper commemoration?

To Aurel (and others) who "represent" Belgian interests among the Pals, personally, I say a sincere thank you for providing and tolerating the cemeteries (lets remember that they are on prime agrcultural land in a densely populated country) and for, now, spending their tax euros on these much needed faciltiies.

Simon Bull

[Chris_Baker]

Please stay within the terms of use of this forum. If you can't remember what they are click here.

This is an emotive subject and there are bound to be widely differing views. No problem with that, or vigorous debate. But please keep it objective and not personal.

[Will O'Brien]

Two questions I have asked myself through the course of this debate is when have the Belgian authorities & people ever acted in a manner detrimental to our war dead? When have they ever shown less than the upmost respect for those men buried in their country? In my heart of hearts I don't think they are about to change now. Trust them to do what is right & let them build what is neccessary & then judge their efforts.

Will

[Drummy]

My view is that 80 odd years after the Great War the more visitors’ centre's there are the better, I feel it is important that the events of those terrible years are readily told at these sites. Furthermore I welcome the increasing numbers of visitor's (be they tourists, descendants, enthusiasts etc) that visit the battlefields of ww1. This continues to generate interest and importantly remembrance of all those who served in that war. If visitor's centre's are tastefully constructed and in an acceptable location near to notable memorials, war cemeteries, locations what's the issue? If these centres help to educate visitors as to what they are looking at and the events that brought them about, excellent news!! Why not be able to obtain a cup of tea or coffee at a nearby site after paying your respects at a grave or memorial tablet?

Are there not building's constructed in the memorial park at Vimy Ridge & Beaumont Hamel?? Are these in view of memorials etc and on the site of battles, I think so????

And finally I am glad that the battlefields of the western front generates tourist revenue for French and Belgian citizens, the needs of the living are more important than those who have gone before.

Many thanks Neil.

[Terry Denham]

I echo my fellow moderators' calls for restraint in tone on this thread. You can disagree with a view without being either agressive or impolite. Such attitudes only detract from your own argument.

I have actually taken the trouble to ask CWGC HQ for their view on this subject but I will not quote their response verbatim as I forgot to ask permission to do so. However, it is fair to say that they appear to agree with the proposals to which they have so far been party citing the obvious need for a solution to the traffic problem which is 'dangerous at the best of times'.

They also state that they would object in the strongest possible terms to any proposal that would be 'inappropriate or impact upon the cemetery ' and that their Belgian office is keeping close contact with developments.

[Michael]

Does that mean that debate and discusion are only allowed if we all agree with Michael?

Even in the dark days of 1914-1918 debate was allowed. Your "Captain" rank isn't real you know

No problem with debate, just the way you're conducting it

[Michael]

MODERATORS

Do we really need all this !

[Fleur]

this has to be only a good thing as long as it is handled sensitively.

It sounds like that vistor reception area will not be an eye sore or a blot next to Tyne cott. It sounds like it has been thought through very carefully.

Having not read all the entries on this thread (due to having not logged in for a few weeks - went AWOL to get married) I don't know if this has been mentioned already .... BUT ...

Have any of you visited Omaha Beach?? Have you walked among the German gun emplacemnets, have you been in to the bunkers??

If you have then you will know that they are wosre than grim. The darker the area the more likely you are to encounter loo roll and human poo.

I'm not say that this would ever happen at Tyne Cott but it is an illustration of a toursit destination with no facilities for those visiting. A couple of loos, well maintianed and an entrance with a little history / biog of the area for the visiting parties is a really good idea and I for one welcome it.

Keep it low profile so it doens't impeade on the solemnity of the area.

I also think a reception area would benefit everyone who visits - weather they choose to look in there or not because it is some where for the kids visiting to get of the bus and calm down before entering the cemetary. How many of us have been there in the cold winter months haveing a quiet reflection only to have the peace shattered by screaming school kids, all ready to let off steam after being carted around in the by their teachers.

Perhaps a reception centre would help them to cool off a bit before entering and to learn a little about why they are there.

Fleur

[AOK4]

Bohpal,

this is the last warning, I deleted your post about us being incompetent historians and/or racist. I am very well aware that Bohpal is Indian and we all are historians who know we can't know everything always. About racism: I met a lot of people from this forum in real life and I often have contact with them and I can assure you that no one here is a racist.

If you do not change your tone, we will be forced to take further steps...

Jan (moderator)

PS: if there are any more such things, I suggest you send me either a personal message or an e-mail. I am on line quite a lot of time, so I can normally take action within 15 minutes...

[Aurel Sercu]

As regards the CWGC I have read nothing that suggests that they agree wholheartedly with the plan. The actual words used by Mr. Sercu suggest that at least one of the parties to the discussion was not in agreement. I wonder which one that was?

45594 

The attitude of the the CWGC in this has already been partly clarified (see Terry), and what follows is just a linguistic detail. The fact is that when in a prior posting I translated a sentence, writing :

"A plan was worked out and presented to the Municipal Council of Zonnebeke, the Province of West-vlaanderen and the CWGC. On the basis of this a consensus was reached between the partners involved"

I thought this was a correct translation. However now I realize I may have made a linguistic error (English is not my mother tongue), suggesting to Mr Bohpal that maybe the CWGC was not in agreement.

The Dutch (Flemish) "tussen de verschillende partners" probably should have been translated "among the partners", not "between the partners". (Am I right when I think I remember that "between" is for 2, "among" for more ? In Dutch we do not make that distinction.) Apologies.

Conclusion : there is nothing in the original Dutch text saying or suggesting that the CWGC was not in agreement.

I'll do my best to find some time this afternoon to quote and translate a few more things from the original article. (Hopefully without linguistic errors !)

Aurel Sercu

[bohpal]

"Are there not building's constructed in the memorial park at Vimy Ridge & Beaumont Hamel?"

Indeed there are. There are also buildings of that nature in Verdun area. The point being that they are not attatched to large war cemetries.

I too am quite happy to have a drink and partake of other refreshment at a visitor centre. I would not do so in a cemetery.

My concern is not a visitor centre per se but it's location. The land on which Tyne Cot is built was undoubtedly fought over. Hence the German stongpoint in the middle of it. It was not however the epicentre of the battle. It can convey none of the uphill struggle that our soldiers had (yes literally). If the Belgians wish to spend upwards of £50000 let some of it be spent in the village from which the battle took its name.

Most WFA Branch trips to that area would visit the village. How many commercial operators do the same? Should they not be encouraged to show their clients the pathetically small nature of the objective for which so many thousands of men gave their lives?

I have no problem with discussion debate and disagreement. I certainly make no claims to be always right. I do however claim the right to have a point of view. It is my nature to express myself forcibly.

Bohpal

edited by Jan (AOK4), Moderator

[bohpal]

"Two questions I have asked myself through the course of this debate is when have the Belgian authorities & people ever acted in a manner detrimental to our war dead? When have they ever shown less than the upmost respect for those men buried in their country? "

I can quote three instances that I take objection to.

**Are you aware that TC is used by "professional" wedding photographers to take a wedding snapshot portfolio of the bride, groom and party after the wedding. I understand that this is done without the permission of the CWGC. It so happens that I am not unduly concerned about these photographs although it does seem in poor taste.

However you should be aware that there have been instances where genuine pilgrims to the cemetery have been asked to move on or an effort has been made to prevent their accessto a specific area.

** Last year TC was the site of a "Peace Concert". Not really appropriate.

** Last year The Menin Gate was the venue for a "Poetry" reading. Whilst permission had been, reluctantly, given by the CWGC for it to be staged, their instructions to the organisers were largely ignored. Again genuine pilgrims were refused admission to the memorial itself. To compound that outrage, the whole event appeared to be an anti British, anti USA "pesce" event. The Prime Minister of the UK and the President of the USA were mocked and insulted during the event.

I believe that the Battles that were fought during the Great War in Ypres, the Somme and Verdun are very high on the list of defining moments of the 20th Century. As such, much of those areas are an absolute must for preservation. I am far from convinced that the Ypres area is in safe hands and I for one believe that the EU needs to be looking much more closely at what is happening there. I just hope there is something left before it becomes a UNESCO world heritage site.

You can build an Industrial Estate anywhere, however, build it over a battlefield have destroyed a historical site forever. Is anyone really happy with what happened to much of the area over which 1st Ypres was fought. But for the foresight of a local cafe owner much of the historical artefacts would have gone for ever.

Bohpal

[Guest Andy Kellett]

I first went to Tyne Cot with a friend on a sunny September afternoon in 1989. We were there for an hour and had the place entirely to ourselves. Similarly we went to Hills 60 & 62 and were totally alone. During a three day trip to the Salient we met just one other British tourist. We went from there to Vimy Ridge where we had a guide entirely to ourselves. Thence to the Somme where we saw perhaps half a dozen people during the couple of hours we spent in Newfoundland Park(wandering exactly where we pleased among the trenches) and nobody at all on a baking hot saturday at Thiepval, Lochnagar and Devonshire Cemetery. I liked it like that, being able to contemplate alone what had happened in these places. As I have grown to know the battlefields better I can still find places where momentous things happened and I can enjoy and think about them in peace.

Times have changed however and large scale battlefield tourism has arrived whether we like it or not. The numbers (and indeed types) of people now visiting the more popular sites means that they have to be managed in some way. I have visited the the Western front at least once a year since 1989 and the change has been remarkable. I was unable to get my car anywhere near Tyne Cot at 10.00am on a cold drizzly March day in 2002. I have seen people urinating against the outside wall at Tyne Cot. Coach parties of schoolchidren stream straight of their coaches and into the cemetery. As has been mentioned before a visitors centre may well improve the atmosphere in the cemetery as well as the hygiene. Most of the contributors to this website will probably already know of the significence of Tyne cot and similar sites before we arrive but that will not be true of many or indeed most of the visitors nowadays. As long as it is done sensitively there is every reason to believe that a well managed and sited visitors centre will help preserve this cemetery in a condition we can be proud of.

There we go, I've said my piece and hopefully I haven't insulted anyone's competence, intelligence or race. Please feel free to disagree with my point of view.

[ianw]

I chanced upon a wedding photographer and the bride and groom earlier this year at Tyne Cot. It was early on a lovely morning. They were using the rear collonaded area. Some of the photos involved the groom lifting his bride off the ground.

Whilst I wouldn't want such photos myself taken at Tyne Cot , the back drop was certainly attractive and on balance I felt the whole thing life affirming and my attitude softened towards such photographs. That said if any such photographer attempted to bar me or any other pilgrims or visitors from any part of the cemetery , he would get short shrift. On the day in question at 8.30 am , we were in sole occupation so no such problem occurred.

Yes , the exterior of Tyne Cot was recently used for a Peace Concert but the sanctity of the interior was respected as promised . I can just about live with this but I still think it is rather presumptious to call up the Dead - even simply as a mute backdrop - to support any position.

The poetry reading events inside the Menin Gate last year were reprehensible but I do not regard the coterie and clique that organised them as being representative in any way of the generality of the Belgian People. Surely the events of one regrettable night need to be viewed against the reverence of the Last Post Ceremony each and every possible night for 75 years. I am sure the changes at Tyne Cot will be done with care and dignity.

[bohpal]

.

." I am sure the changes at Tyne Cot will be done with care and dignity."

We can only hope so Mr Whitlock

Can I also say how pleasant it is to correspond with an individual who actually understands the issues that have been raised.

It is almost irrelevant that people agree with a particular viewpoint or not. Too many individuals simply are not prepared to concede that there is a viewpoint that is contrary to their own.

You are truly a gentleman Mr Whitlock

Thank you

Bohpal

edited by Jan (AOK)

[ianw]

Thanks for that Bohpal.

I am sure we will be kept up to date with developments by Aurel, Jan etc and will be able to express our further concerns if needs be. Let's watch this space.

[Drummy]

When bophal makes the point in answer to my mention of buidlings at Vimy and Beaumont Hamel he states that these are not attached to large war cemeteries, I am sure the sites of Vimy and Beaumont Hamel are cemeteries in a sense, because I have no doubt that there are unrecovered soldier's remains buried throughout those memorial parks (as indeed across the WF) but not neccessarily in CWGC war cemeteries. Where ever they decide to build in area's of what were once battlefield's, links to WW1 will be found. Elsewhere on this forum is mention of the remains of German troops uncovered during the work on Thiepval visitor's centre. Whilst I can see the point of a centre being located in the village I feel the reality of it is that the majority of visitor's go to Tyne Cot and that is where it makes most sense to build a centre, so the story of the tragedy that unfolded during the war is told, near to a huge war cemetery that bears witness to the horrific losses sustained.

I can see no issue whatever in building a centre behind Tyne Cot as long as it is built in a style approriate and in line with it's location. As for tea & coffee it would be a definate plus if they serve refreshments there but credit us with some degree of respect I dont think we will be drinking tea wandering around Tyne Cot. Anyhow that's my view and final post in respect of this thread. Thanks Neil.

[Guest Hill 60]

I am sure the sites of Vimy and Beaumont Hamel are cemeteries in a sense, because I have no doubt that there are unrecovered soldier's remains buried throughout those memorial parks (as indeed across the WF) but not neccessarily in CWGC war cemeteries.

I always thought that Delville Wood was considered a mass grave as well, is that an official line or just a sensible one?