zijde26 Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 To All, There is today in the Belgian newspaper " De Financieel-Economische Tijd " a small article on " Tyne Cot " Cemetery saying that the new visitors centre will cost 1,23 million euro. The costs will be paid by the Flemish government (717.000,- eur), the province (West-Vlaanderen), Zonnebeke and some people. It will be ready in 2007, commemorating so the battle of Passendale. Th article shows also a photo of the Tyne Cot Cemetery. Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 TYNE COT What next? More "Peace Concerts" and antiBrit/US "poetry" readings. Time for mail from Ian W to the CWGC 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Hang on, let's not get carried away here. I suggest you have a look at the previous thread on this: http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?a...T&f=4&t=736&hl= No-one is going to build this in the middle of the cemetery, and personally I am very grateful to the Belgians for starting this initiative, which I see as a positive addition to the battlefields in Flanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Thanks for the info Gilbert. Tyne Cot is on every visitor itinerary, and it could use some facilities. Two or three coaches take up the available parking as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 I would have thought that the lesson about over reaction should have been learnt by now, particularly after the last bit of nonsense just about a week ago! Secondly, if somebody has a gripe, try doing something about it personally, don't try and drag other forum members into it, particularly when they haven't commented themselves. Let's keep it cool and considered please. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 TYNE COT The previous thread has a posting from a person who describes it as a "Peace Park". Some people have forgotten last years debacle!! I have not!! The facilities provided at Delville Wood and Newfoundland Park were provided by the national goverments of South Africa and Canada. Will the TC site, provided by a local entrepeneur have any motive other than profit? By all means provide it, but up in the village. The stained glass memorial in the church would be an additional "attraction" To use the provision of additional parking as an justification is pathetic. Were the CWGC asked to comment? Do we know what their reaction is? Despite the advertisment for the Company for whom a frequent contributor works, that company were no means the first to organise tours of the battlefields during the 1980' and 90's. It would certainly be argued by gentlemen from Birmingham that Big L jumped on the bandwagon and copied them!! I would agree with their claim but point out that they probably copied others. Perhaps faggots preceded sandwiches? 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 As I said, please keep comments cool and considered. And please do not make comments about people either by inference or by name, this is not the place for it. If you have a problem, take it up with the people concerned - in private! Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Whilst I am quite prepared to express myself energetically at times, I must confess that I am broadly in favour of the proposed new facilities at Tyne Cot. It attracts large numbers of visitors and visitors need facilities. Unfortunately, these need to be rather closer than the village itself. As with all these new developments, they need to be undertaken with the utmost sensitivity and I think that such care is usually well demonstrated when local authorities are involved. The unique atmosphere of Tyne Cot need not be too badly prejudiced. We simply cannot demonize battlefield tour companies each time additional visitor facilities are proposed anywhere on the Western Front. Most of us have used their services and have had rewarding experiences as a result. I do not feel that the new facilities should necessarily make it any more or less likely that Tyne Cot will attract "Peace Concerts" or any other quasi-political events of whatever complexion. My views are well known on this but it is a separate issue. I was cheered by the avoidance of the interior of the cemetery during the last Peace Protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 I can't help it, but this paranoia emerging again as soon as Tyne Cot Cemetery or the Menin Gate Memorial or Talbot House or the A19 motorway comes in the news, makes me angry and makes the adrenaline pump. Tyne Cot Cemetery is not going to be changed into an amusement park! In a posting some months ago I have translated a newspaper article describing what would be done near Tyne Cot Cemetery. But I'm glad that it looks like some people at least are not going to be carried away by overreacting. I do hope they will be the majority. Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 6 August , 2003 Share Posted 6 August , 2003 Hello, I found a description about the project on www.wo1.be: "Indiener : Gemeente Zonnebeke Naam van het project : Uitbouw onthaalinfrastructuur Tyne Cot Cmetry Toegekende subsidie : 717.000 Euro Beschrijving van het project : Tyne Cot is met z’n 150.000 bezoekers per jaar één van de meest bezochte oorlogssites van de Westhoek. Deze bezoekers zullen vanaf nu beschikken over een goede onthaalinfrastructuur bestaande uit : een parking, sanitair, 2 wandelpaden, een onthaalpaviljoen, een vredesweide, een verbetering van de wegen naar Tyne Cot." So 717,000 euro will be spent on visitor facilities: a parking, toilets, 2 walking paths, a small building to receive the visitors, a peace meadow and better roads to the Cemetery. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 ....peace meadow? There are thousands of square meter peace meadows in Flanders, with billions of poppies. They are all for free.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 For those of you who understand a few words of Dutch: there isthis article on the HP of Zonnebeke where you can find all about the project. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 So 717,000 euro will be spent on visitor facilities: a parking, toilets, 2 walking paths, a small building to receive the visitors, a peace meadow and better roads to the Cemetery. Where is the return on the investment of £500,00 to come from? Perhaps Belgian entrepeneurs are more generous with their money than than their British equivalent. The income from car parking fees is hardly likely to provide a decent income let alone repay the capital. If it were purely a municipal or govenmental investment, I would be less concerned. Judging by what has ben written, the whole "enterprise"will be extremely close to TC. Why? Is it not possible for people to walkk a couple of hundred yards. What next, remove a few headstones to make a shorter path? Again, I ask:-Were the CWGC consulted and is so, what was their reaction. If they were NOT consulted, I ask why? I recollect that a number of contributors complained about the French entrepeneur who set up refreshment facilities opposite Newfie Park even though it provided a useful facility for the many people who visit the area by car 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 . "Tyne Cot Cemetery is not going to be changed into an amusement park! " I am well aware of Mr. Sercu's contribution to the history of his country. However we do have an equally good record in the UK, albeit our battlefields are somewhat older than those from the Great War. Have you heard of Tewksbury or Worcester? No trading estates or motorways were allowed to be built there despite the worst efforts of the local entrepeneurs. I am frankly saddened that Mr Sercu should adopt his current stance. I for one, will continue to protest at what I perceive to be "cultural vandalism" to the last resting place of the bodies and spirits of thousands of allied soldiers who gave their lives to keep his country free. You are quite right Mr Sercu, Tyne Cot is NOT an amusement park. Let's keep it that way. 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 In the interests of hygiene alone sensitively planned visitor facilities near large cemeteries, or groups of cemeteries and memorials that attract hundreds or thousands of visitors have now become a must. It is all very well being high and mighty about inconsiderate behaviour by visitors, but it is more important to be realistic, particularly in rural areas where facilities are few and far between. It is unreasonable to expect the local population to tolerate loo paper and the like behind every available bush, curtain wall or gardener's shed which unfortunately is what is beginning to happen. With a seemingly ever growing interest in battlefield visiting the only solution is going to be the provision of more and more of these facilities. I suspect the CWGC does not the funds to do this, and the only way the money will be found is from private enterprise (which will expect a return on capital), donations or from community funds of the host counties. I have no problem with private investment so long as it is sensitive and not carried out within the actual grounds of the cemetery/memorial. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 I believe the total cost is over 1 million euro for the project, of which 717 thousand euro will be given from the the Belgian authorities (I believe province West Flanders). About hygiene: I guess the larger German cemeteries in France and Flanders are better equipped and quite a few of them have public toilets. I don't understand why the CWGC never built those near Tyne Cot. The visitor's centre and parking etc. at Tyne Cot will apparently be built at the back of the Cemetery and visitors will then be led on two paths (which will look a bit like trenches apparently) towards the entrance at the front. I haven't seen plans or models from the whole plan, which would be very interesting I think to see if everything fits in nicely. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 (...) I for one, will continue to protest at what I perceive to be "cultural vandalism" to the last resting place of the bodies and spirits of thousands of allied soldiers who gave their lives to keep his country free. (...) Of course, we all should continue to protest at "cultural vandalism". The question is : is what will be happening at Tyne Cot Cemetery really "cultural vandalism" ? It seems we have a different opinion about the word "vandalism". In a further posting by the same author I read : "What next, remove a few headstones to make a shorter path ?" I am perplex. Will the building of a simple visitors centre and a sanitary block etc. really lead to this ? I had never thought of that... If I had had more time I would gladly translate the article (in Dutch) Jan has referred to. This would give the Forumnists the opportunity to judge if the word "vandalism" can be applied here. Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munce Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 The Belgian and French people freely gave the land of those cemeteries for the British and Commonwealth dead to rest in peace. No-one ever said that a condition of that gift was that there should be no commercial enterprise for a certain distance around the edges of the cemeteries, or that people visiting the cemeteries should be afforded a nice view of the battlefields. As long as the cemeteries themselves are left in the pristine condition that the CWGC currently keeps them (and I see no indication that the sanctity of Tyne Cot cemetery itself will be affected by any of this), what happens outside is entirely up to tbe French or in this case Belgian people to decide. Although we, as Great War enthusiasts, have a tendency to see the areas around Ypres, Thiepval, etc, as primarily 'the place where the battles took place and lots of British soldiers died', the reality is that these places are first and foremost farms, villages, factories, schools, etc. We cannot and should not try to crimp the ability of the Belgian and French people to make a living, just because we feel that the battlefields ought to be kept sacred for ever more. As for the role of the CWGC in all this, I'm pretty sure that their interest and legal remit stops at the wall of the cemetery. I don't think there is any need to consult them on anything which happens outside the premises of the cemetery, and I don't think it is their function to provide facilities for visitors, beyond information about who is buried within. As long as the proposed plan doesn't restrict peoples' ability to visit the cemetery itself, and doesn't encroach on to cemetery land, then who are we to try to stop it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 I am well aware of Mr. Sercu's contribution to the history of his country. However we do have an equally good record in the UK, albeit our battlefields are somewhat older than those from the Great War. Have you heard of Tewksbury or Worcester? No trading estates or motorways were allowed to be built there despite the worst efforts of the local entrepeneurs. Culloden, Bosworth, Hastings, Bannockburn etc. what do they have in common? Visitors centres Oh, and how about we stop knocking each other and jumping to conclusions Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 As I have said, translating the whole article Jan referred to, would take too much time and energy. (And I can assure you as to using energy : it is hot here !) However, as the question "Were the CWGC consulted ? Do we know what their reaction is ?" was asked, just this : "A plan was worked out and presented to the Municipal Council of Zonnebeke, the Province West-Vlaanderen (under the terms of 'War and Peace in the Westhoek') and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. On the basis of this a consensus was reached between the partners involved, consisting of 6 components." (These components being : a parking lot, paths, a visitor's centre, peace garden, sanitary block, mobility.) Just to say that the CWGC (of course) was consulted in this matter. Even if nothing will be changed to the cemetery itself. Aurel Sercu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 Munce You make a very good point. We should be eternally grateful that the French and Belgian people allowed the CWGC to retain the hundreds of scattered cemeteries scattered over their countryside, villages and towns, rather than forcing them to move these into concentation cemeteries which would have been a lot more convenient and less inhibiting on these Countries' future planning. As you say these cemeteries and memorials were granted to Britain in perpertuity, although recent controvery over another Paris airport has put this concept under pressure. The sanctity or otherwise of the cemeteries themselves has been covered in earlier debates, but the right to control what goes on on the surrounding land was never an issue. For any of us to suggest that we might have such a right in another Country is both presumptive and arrogant. If the French and Belgian authorities choose to consult with the CWGC over what they intend to do with THEIR neighbouring land, then surely that should be welcomed as a courtesy but not seen a requirement? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 . " Culloden, Bosworth, Hastings, Bannockburn etc. what do they have in common? Visitors centres" Yes, but not immediately adjacent to the largest CWGC cemetery in Europe! Is it really appropriate to have a visitors centre for a cemetry. Perhaps it will be somewhere for the wedding parties to shelter when it is raining 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohpal Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 "Oh, and how about we stop knocking each other and jumping to conclusions" Michael Does that mean that debate and discusion are only allowed if we all agree with Michael? Even in the dark days of 1914-1918 debate was allowed. Your "Captain" rank isn't real you know 45594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 I agree with Tim. Whether we like it or not Tyne Cot is the Picadilly Circus of the Western Front battefield tourism and pilgramage industry. It is clear to anyone who has visited the place recently that it simply cannot handle the numbers; lack of coach parking, no toilets (what do people do? - best not to ask) and artificial grass because the real stuff has worn out. As I understand it the proposed developments will take place in the field at the rear of the cemetery and not the cemetery itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 7 August , 2003 Share Posted 7 August , 2003 I agree with both of you. The coaches in front result in a bit of a hazard. They also block the view toward Ypres that the IWGC intended visitors to have. The volume of people is such that toilet facilities are badly needed. Finally I have no reason to believe the local authorities are going to allow this to be done in anything close to bad taste. I understand that some consider anything to be bad taste and it will not be possible to satisfy them. I believe this will help the site including the cemetery; I would hate to be wrong I do admit, let's keep an eye on this, work with our many Belgian friends and keep cool heads, people who care such as Pals and WFA should be able to agree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now