clairec79 Posted 16 October , 2005 Share Posted 16 October , 2005 If a cemetery has been closed for 50+ years and the gravestones are due to be removed (Church has been sold off) It's just been discovered that there are 3 war graves there (All was overgrown and it's only after a lot of work with strimmers they've been discovered) Are there any rules on these gravestones (they are CWG)? Can they be removed? Do CWG have to be informed or is there anyone who would want the stones otherwise (I don't know if they are WW1 or 2 at present) I've given the new owner CWG phone number and they'll be called tomorrow but thought people on here may know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 October , 2005 Share Posted 16 October , 2005 Please can you give the location of the cemetery and I'll see if I can find out more (PM me if you wish). CWGC will almost certainly know about the proposal and will be making representations or plans on alternative commemoration. Unfortunately, they have no powers to stop such action. If the worst comes to the worst, they will remove the stones which are their property and probably erect alternative commemoration stones in a nearby cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clairec79 Posted 17 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2005 Now found out it's MAESYCWMMER (TABOR) CONGREGATIONAL CHAPELYARD and only actually ONE war grave (anyone know any more about him?) MORRIS, LEVI RICHARDS Initials: L R Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Welsh Regiment Unit Text: 17th Bn. Age: 33 Date of Death: 13/06/1918 Service No: 46102 Am trying to convince new owner to leave his grave as a memorial (eg surround it with something and lay wreath etc on 11/11) which I think is more likely as there is only 1 (I think the other two she originally mentioned must have been people who died during WW1 not because of it) whereas if it had been a few that had been spread around then they probably would have been needed to place together for this to happen) Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 17 October , 2005 Share Posted 17 October , 2005 From SDGW Born Rumney, Glam Enlisted Caerphilly Resident Hengoed, Glam Died of wounds Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 17 October , 2005 Share Posted 17 October , 2005 CWGC will be looking into this. I have been in touch today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 18 October , 2005 Share Posted 18 October , 2005 anyone know any more about him? Claire Son of Richard (b. 1862) and Elizabeth Ann (b. 1861) Morris. In the census of Wales in 1901, the family lived at 34 Lynewydd (?) Street, Gelligaer, Glamorgan. In addition to Levi, there other family members were sons Willie (b. 1889), Rupert (b. 1893) and Alfred (b. 1900) and daughters Ann (b. 1891) and Mattie (b. 1896). Levi is shown to be a coalminer, as is his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roselyn2 Posted 15 October , 2012 Share Posted 15 October , 2012 I've purchased a Victory medal to 46102 Pte. L. R. Morris. Welsh R. Lyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 CWGC still have him listed as in the churchyard. Their photograph shows the churchyard with other headstones still in place. Keith Edit: Google streetview also shows the site as overgrown, but with memorials still standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 This may be of interest (My Bold Text) Burial in ‘private’ or ‘family’ graves was assumed to be ‘in perpetuity’until the Local Authorities’ Cemeteries Order 1977. This stipulated rights of burial for a maximum period of 100 years, except in the case of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which can still grant burial rights without limit. Church of England churchyards may be closed for further burials by Order in Council, a process which cannot be reversed. Under English law the Church of England is allowed to pass to local authorities churchyards closed for burials responsibility for care and maintenance. See: http://webarchive.na...ial-grounds.pdf Norman Added from first post If a cemetery has been closed for 50+ years and the gravestones are due to be removed (Church has been sold off) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 There would appear to be a large number of graves in this place: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Any further news on the fate of the graveyard yet?, presumably all that was required was a phone call by CWGC to Caerphilly County Borough Council in whose administration area the chapel and graveyard reside. Link http://www.caerphill...3Oca256osA9Fg==. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Received today: I am in receipt of your enquiry regarding the above. Please be advised that to date no planning application has been submitted in respect of this property and as such it is not known if the graveyard would be affected or even included in any application. It may be that the chapel has been sold without the graveyard? In any event, the future of the graveyard is a private matter and may I respectfully suggest that you contact the original chapel owner or new chapel owner for clarification in this respect. My limited understanding of this matter is that if there are graves and it is intended to build upon or purchase the ground they are on, it will first have to be deconsecrated. I believe any developer would have to contact the Home Office in this respect. Michele Davies Principal Planner Caerphilly County Borough Council Telephone: 01495 235227 e-mail: daviem2@caerphilly.gov.uk Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Has any member an update on this topic?, perhaps Clairec79 the first poster or Terry Denhan can give us an update as interest in this has appeared to have dried-up for the moment. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 The other half lives nearby. I shall check this tomorrow morning. However if I remember rightly the chapel and grave yard as yet untouched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Thanks, here is a reponse from the Anglican Church in Wales. Dear Mr. Thank you for your email dated 18 October. Unfortunately the chapel to which you refer was, or is, not the property of the Church in Wales. The Church in Wales is the Anglican church denomination, the Welsh equivalent of the Church of England. Congregational chapels tend to be owned independently by the member of the chapel so I am not certain who you could contact to find out the information you need. If the property has been sold HM Land Registry should have the details of sale, some of which are available for members of the public to access. I am sorry I can’t be more helpful. Yours sincerely, John Davies John Davies, MA Estates Officer The Representative Body of the Church in Wales Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Many Congregational Chapels eventually became part of the United Reformed Church. Depending on what you wish to know, you could try writing to the Synod of the United Reformed Church in Wales which is likely to hold documentation, or even contacting the RCAHMW Heritage of Wales Chapels project. I have had pleasant dealings with the latter. Gwyn Edited to add links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 I will note any contact details Friday morning. Even if it is estate agents details. Will be a start to find the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 I very much appreciate your efforts in this matter; my only reason for pursuing this is that the first posting seemed to imply that the gravestones were in imminent danger of being removed after the sale of the site. In my experience this would also require exhumation of any human remains followed by reinterment and this would not happen without the involvement of the appropriate authorities and would face understandable opposition from those who have family buried here plus the fact there is a CWGC grave on the site. I think that it is important that the members of the forum understand exactly what is going on here which is not at all clear from the initial posts. Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Re exhumation and reinterment. I'm sorry to say that this isn't always the case. I know of a Methodist chapel in Wales in my relatives' village where the devoloper exhumed some of the graves and built on top of the rest, which had not been emptied. The majority of the headstones were sent for scrap. I don't believe any official record was made of the graves lost, though I think volunteers tried their best. I have the impression that strenuous efforts were not made to find any family. This happened in the last five years. Apart from the spiritual dimension of having a human body resting under a parking space or a new-build house, the original 19c relatives would have invested a small fortune in buying the grave and having a stone erected. They might even have been my family, and my family under the luxury flats and parking space, though most belonged to a different chapel. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 At the moment there appears to be no builders or any other movement to develop the chapel or grounds. Once we know who has the deeds, progress can be made. Knowing the area from my other half. There could be a stink anyway about the other graves. some look a bit recent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Here is an example in Bristol where a Methodist Church has been tastefully redeveloped as residential property and then the attached burial ground was bought by a speculator who proposed to remove all the graves and develop the site. Luckily the locals were so incensed at this that they formed an action group which no doubt helped when eventually the city council purchased the site and is now maintaining it. This link may be of interest: http://www.friendsof...net/Default.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 I believe there is a 50 year window in which a relative can object to the redevelopment of a grave (ie burials within the 50 years before the proposed development). In fact 50 years is still within living memory - anyone in their early 50s or older is likely to have some memories of a grandparent or relative who died during their early childhood. It used to be that developers would back off before digging up a graveyard, but evidently that's no longer the case. Personally I find it appalling that buildings can be erected over human remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Norman According to this website Click the chapel is grade II listed; It ought to be possible to obtain the Land Registry details (Title & Plan) as pdfs using the 'Find a Property' search Here The plan should show whether the graveyard is still considered as part of the property (at least as currently known to the LR) & if you're lucky the title document will give the current owner; the bad news is that, although not unreasonable for an online service, there's a charge of £3.00 for each. NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I suspect that so far as the specific property is concerned we are all trying too hard. The CWGC have information about access, and their interest will be noted. They are unlikely to do more in the short term than just maintain a watching brief, but I do feel that we should respect their professionalism and await their reply to Terry. They will have dealt with a number of such situations, and are well versed in dealing with them. It appears from the original posts, that the property, in whole or part changed hands once, although of course a sale might have fallen through, and it is surely likely that the costs involved probably turned out to be uneconomic for the new or prospective owner. I have visited UK memorials to casualties where churchyards have been cleared, and an appropriate special memorial has always been negotiated and put in place. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 Unless I've missed something, Terry's post was in 2005. I have no especial interest other than suggesting a line of inquiry. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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