20th Division Posted 31 December , 2008 Share Posted 31 December , 2008 Hello Dave, Apologises for the late reply. I do not actually think that I am going to be of much help to you here my man, as I have no photographic evidence of where the sign was worn. It does not appear to be in the I-d pamphlet that I have, although some references of it have been made of it in the 'Formation Sign' the quarterly journal of the 'Military Heraldry Society'. I will in time get around to checking them, but until then I have three other references that almost quote the same information. The 20th [Light] Infantry Division: [1] Mike Chappell's 'British battle Insignia (1)': In a Division where half the infantry were Rifle Bns it was appropriate that the scheme of battle patches should be all black. [The other half of the Div, I believe were Lt. Inf,.] [2] John Player's Cigarette Cards 'Army. Corps & Divisional Signs 1914-18': As far as can be ascertained no particular history seems to be attached to the origin of this sign. One of the Divisions of 'K1' the original idea was to have formed the three Bdes [59th, 60th & 61st] entirely of Rifle Regts, hence the name Light Division, but the scheme had to be modified. [3] V. Wheeler- Holohan's 'Divisonal & Other Signs': This is quite a simple sign and have no particular history. It was a white circular disc, bearing a red cross which was charged in the centre with a black bull's eye. Do you know how I can find out the "meaning/ symbolism" of the insignia? My definition of the sign would be that the disc and bull's eye were part of a target, and the cross represent the sights of a rifle. But then again that is my theory! Other's may know different. Sorry I cannot be of more help at the moment. Regards Arthur Hi Arthur-Thanks for your prompt reply-----I like your theory about the bulls eye and the rifle target-sounds very plausible--and in the absence of other info I will go for that. If you ever discover who might have worn these cloth patches and where ---i would be gateful to hear from you. I really appreciate your well researched answer even if it doesn't solve the mystery completely. Fascinating bits of history aren't they? They must be quite rare objects to have survived. I am going to go through the threads of this subject carefully to learn more. Again "thanks"-and wishing you and yours a very happy new year. Best wishes. DAVE.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incolumitas Posted 3 January , 2009 Share Posted 3 January , 2009 Hello Jeremy, I have the following information: 1st/8th Bn, The Middlesex Regiment [a] Officers: White square 1½" sides, cotton. Yellow inverted triangle 2" side cotton. Sorry no time period for either item. 167th (1st London) Brigade. Sorry nothing found. B Battery RHA (41 div artillery?) Sorry nothing found. 1st/7th (Robin Hood) Battalion Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby) Dark green Maltese Cross, worn on the back, felt. Sorry no time period for this item. Regards Arthur Hi Arthur, further to your excellent reply to my last enquiry, I've now got another, hardly dare ask but have you any info on 3/8th Battalion Middlesex regiment as well? Thanks and best wishes, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 4 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2009 Hi Arthur, further to your excellent reply to my last enquiry, I've now got another, hardly dare ask but have you any info on 3/8th Battalion Middlesex regiment as well? Thanks and best wishes, Jeremy Hi Jeremy, Never be worried about asking for information, if I have it, then you are welcome to it. However, I am sorry my man, you are out of luck with the 3rd/8th Bn. I have information on the following Middlesex Regt Bns: 2nd 3rd 4th a1st/8th b1st/8th 1st/9th 2nd/10th 3rd/10th a12th b12th 13th 14th a20th b20th a21st b21st Title Regards Arthur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incolumitas Posted 4 January , 2009 Share Posted 4 January , 2009 Hi Jeremy, Never be worried about asking for information, if I have it, then you are welcome to it. However, I am sorry my man, you are out of luck with the 3rd/8th Bn. I have information on the following Middlesex Regt Bns: 2nd 3rd 4th a1st/8th b1st/8th 1st/9th 2nd/10th 3rd/10th a12th b12th 13th 14th a20th b20th a21st b21st Title Regards Arthur. Hi Arthur, thanks for that kind reply! Having just posted my question yesterday I realised that the 3/8 bttn was probably a UK depot battn and would be unlikely to have "battle insignia". (Was just going to ask what the difference is between a and b but haing looked up your last reply that's officers and ORs) Thanks again for your efforts and best wishes, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 4 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2009 Hi Arthur, thanks for that kind reply! Having just posted my question yesterday I realised that the 3/8 bttn was probably a UK depot battn and would be unlikely to have "battle insignia". (Was just going to ask what the difference is between a and b but haing looked up your last reply that's officers and ORs) Thanks again for your efforts and best wishes, Jeremy Hi Jeremy, The letters a, b, etc, etc prefixed before the Bn N° is a system that I used when indexing the I-d pamphlet, this then let me know that there was more than one item shown in there. With regards to the Middlesex Regt: There are five columns below. L-R, the first column is the identification N°. The second shows the Regt, the third column gives the Bn [Where there was more than one item found for the Bn., it was then prefixed a, b, etc, etc. So they were not necessarily prefixed for an officer or O/R as it could have been for a company or another sign worn.]. Column four gives the page N° which gives the description of the formation sign, and the page N° in column five lets me know where to look for the illustration. 243 Middlesex Regiment 2nd Page 43 Page 71 30a Middlesex Regiment 3rd Page 34 Page 64 14h Middlesex Regiment 4th Page 29 Page 63 14g Middlesex Regiment a1st/8th Page 29 Page 63 36d Middlesex Regiment b1st/8th Page 35 Page 64 245 Middlesex Regiment 1st/9th Page 44 Page 71 246 Middlesex Regiment 2nd/10th Page 44 Page 71 244 Middlesex Regiment 3rd/10th Page 44 Page 71 247 Middlesex Regiment a12th Page 44 Page 71 248 Middlesex Regiment b12th Page 44 Page 71 26h Middlesex Regiment 13th Page 33 Page 64 249 Middlesex Regiment 14th Page 44 Page 72 14i Middlesex Regiment a20th Page 29 Page 63 250 Middlesex Regiment b20th Page 44 Page 72 4b Middlesex Regiment a21st Page 26 Page 63 251 Middlesex Regiment b21st Page 44 Page 72 252 Middlesex Regiment Title Page 44 Hope this helps. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incolumitas Posted 5 January , 2009 Share Posted 5 January , 2009 Hi Arthur, Brilliant stuff! Last question (same family, different brother/regiment) - any insignia for 1/6th battn South Staffs? Thanks again for your quick, kind and comprehensive replies! Cheers, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 6 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2009 Hi Arthur, Brilliant stuff! Last question (same family, different brother/regiment) - any insignia for 1/6th battn South Staffs? Thanks again for your quick, kind and comprehensive replies! Cheers, Jeremy Hi Jeremy, One item shown: Light blue knot on khaki rectangle, worn on helmet. Piping on felt. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigatt Posted 7 January , 2009 Share Posted 7 January , 2009 I have the following information regarding 'Cloth Formation Insignia': Major John Waring's Identification Pamphlet for WWI. It is a Military Heraldry Society publication which has now been long out of print. Details of British, Australian and Canadian insignia are given. They are shown, with a reference to the colour, size and material that they are made from. If this would assist anyone? I would be willing to search it for any queries they may have. Arthur Hi Arthur My great grandfather was injured during the war.I believe he woudl heva been entitled to wear a wound badge on the left sleave of his uniform? Do you have a picture of such? BW Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 8 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2009 Hi Arthur My great grandfather was injured during the war.I believe he woudl heva been entitled to wear a wound badge on the left sleave of his uniform? Do you have a picture of such? BW Nigel Hi, Sorry my man, no picture! However, there is an artist's illustration by G. A. Embleton on the front cover, which is the same as Plate H in Osprey's Men-at-Arms Series N° 81 'THE BRITISH ARMY 1914-18' by D. S. V. Fosten & R. J. Marrion. The plate shows three soldiers, each with yellow/gold wound stripes. Sorry to say that I cannot scan this information for you as the printer/scanner has given up the ghost. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigatt Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Hi, Sorry my man, no picture! However, there is an artist's illustration by G. A. Embleton on the front cover, which is the same as Plate H in Osprey's Men-at-Arms Series N° 81 'THE BRITISH ARMY 1914-18' by D. S. V. Fosten & R. J. Marrion. The plate shows three soldiers, each with yellow/gold wound stripes. Sorry to say that I cannot scan this information for you as the printer/scanner has given up the ghost. Regards Arthur Many thanks Arthus - I'll check these out. BW my man. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leicetershirejones Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Do you have anything for the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 The 2nd Battalion, when in the middle east, wore a black diamond on the Pith helmets as a way of identification. A book was re-released this year about the 2nd Leicesters in the middle east, called 'Tigers along the Tigris' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leicetershirejones Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 The 2nd Battalion, when in the middle east, wore a black diamond on the Pith helmets as a way of identification. A book was re-released this year about the 2nd Leicesters in the middle east, called 'Tigers along the Tigris' Many thanks RobL, that is very very useful (see photo)! I had been trying to establish which Leicestershire battalion my grandfather was in (he was later in the 2/19th London). Pte. F.W. Jones 45093 I'll try to get a copy of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 Nice photo, definitely a 2nd Leicester. Interesting shoulder titles though - looks like he's wearing collar dogs instead, usually worn by Officers on their collars, instead of the usual curved 'LEICESTER' brass shoulder title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leicetershirejones Posted 9 January , 2009 Share Posted 9 January , 2009 looks like he's wearing collar dogs instead, usually worn by Officers on their collars, instead of the usual curved 'LEICESTER' brass shoulder title That must be an artefact of the image compression, as a blow up of the original shows it is indeed the curved Leicester insignia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 11 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2009 Do you have anything for the 2nd Battalion Leicestershire Regiment? cheers Hi I have two items recorded for the 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regt: [1] Black 1" square worn on the collar. Felt. [2] As mention by RobL: Black diamond 3"X1½" worn on helmet [As in your photograph] Felt. And two items for the 2nd/19th Bn The London Regt: [1] Blue grey inverted triangle with 2" top and 3" sides. Felt. [2] Title: "Light blue letters on khaki arc: "2nd 19 LR" Embroidered on felt. Hope this helps Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leicetershirejones Posted 11 January , 2009 Share Posted 11 January , 2009 Hi I have two items recorded for the 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regt: [1] Black 1" square worn on the collar. Felt. [2] As mention by RobL: Black diamond 3"X1½" worn on helmet [As in your photograph] Felt. And two items for the 2nd/19th Bn The London Regt: [1] Blue grey inverted triangle with 2" top and 3" sides. Felt. [2] Title: "Light blue letters on khaki arc: "2nd 19 LR" Embroidered on felt. Hope this helps Arthur That's great Arthur. I also have a photo of him with the black collar square, so that fits perfectly! I'll have to look to see if any other pictures show the London insignia. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourlonwood Posted 19 February , 2009 Share Posted 19 February , 2009 Hello Arthur and others members I am looking for the 56th Div (London) coloured patches scheme or some battalions patches : ORDER OF BATTLE 167th Bde: 1/7th Middlesex Regt, 1/8th Middlesex Regt, 1/1st Londons, 1/3rd Londons 168th Bde: 1/4th Londons, 1/12th Londons, 1/13th Londons, 1/14th Londons 169th Bde: 1/2nd Londons, 1/5th Londons, 1/9th Londons, 1/16th Londons Pioneers: 5th Cheshire Regt Thank for Your help David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 19 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2009 Hello Arthur and others members I am looking for the 56th Div (London) coloured patches scheme or some battalions patches : ORDER OF BATTLE 167th Bde: 1/7th Middlesex Regt, 1/8th Middlesex Regt, 1/1st Londons, 1/3rd Londons 168th Bde: 1/4th Londons, 1/12th Londons, 1/13th Londons, 1/14th Londons 169th Bde: 1/2nd Londons, 1/5th Londons, 1/9th Londons, 1/16th Londons Pioneers: 5th Cheshire Regt Thank for Your help David Hello David, I have the following information: 167th Bde: 1/7th Middlesex Regt, Sorry nothing found 1/8th Middlesex Regt, [1]Officiers: White square, 1½ inch sides. Cotton [2] Yellow inverted triangle, 2 inch sides. Cotton 1/1st Londons, Light yellow disc, 2 inch diameter. Silk 1/3rd Londons Light yellow square, 2 inch sides. Silk 168th Bde: 1/4th Londons, Red disc, 2 inch diameter. Silk 1/12th Londons, [1]Red square, 1½ inch sides. Cotton [2]Black Maltese Cross. Felt 1/13th Londons, Red diamond, 3 X 2 inches. Silk 1/14th Londons Red inverted triangle, 2 inch sides. Silk 169th Bde: 1/2nd Londons, [1]Light green disc, 2 inch diameter. Silk [2][1915] Dark Blue top over crimson bottom square. Felt 1/5th Londons, [1]Green square, 2 inch sides. Felt [2]Green square, 1½ inch sides. Felt [3]Dark blue rectangle 1 inch X 3 inches. Felt 1/9th Londons, Green diamond, 2 inch sides. Silk 1/16th Londons Geen inverted triangle, 2½ inch sides. Silk Pioneers: 5th Cheshire Regt Sorry nothing found Hope this information helps you. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bourlonwood Posted 19 February , 2009 Share Posted 19 February , 2009 Hello Arthur Thank You for Your prompt answer. This is very helpful. But this helmet I try to identify (I think 56th div) stay a mistery ! If someone had an idea about it ? Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hello, Any ideas on the red square? It is approximately 2" x 2" and is on both shoulders. It is on a RFA(T) colonel's cuff rank osd tunic. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 20 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hello Arthur Thank You for Your prompt answer. This is very helpful. But this helmet I try to identify (I think 56th div) stay a mistery ! If someone had an idea about it ? Regards David Hello David, I have an idea about it, however, whether or not it is correct. I don't know! Red/Black/Red are the colours that were worn on 'Army' armlets, and from your photograph they have attached their insignia over it! Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted 20 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hello, Any ideas on the red square? It is approximately 2" x 2" is on both shoulders. It is on a RFA(T) colonel's cuff rank osd tunic. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Cheers, Bill Hello Bill, Sorry my man, although the evidence is there for all to see, I have no information relating to the R.F.A. with this formation sign. However, although it is of no help to you I have eight references for a red 2" square and they relate to infantry regiments only, of which I have checked to see if any of them had been converted to Artillery. Sorry I cannot be of more help. Regards Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Hello Bill, Sorry my man, although the evidence is there for all to see, I have no information relating to the R.F.A. with this formation sign. However, although it is of no help to you I have eight references for a red 2" square and they relate to infantry regiments only, of which I have checked to see if any of them had been converted to Artillery. Sorry I cannot be of more help. Regards Arthur Thanks Arthur for checking! Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john gregory Posted 3 April , 2009 Share Posted 3 April , 2009 I have a nice pair of 2nd Battalion Royal Berkshire flashes worn after Feb 1918, Red diagonal on green square in felt. Ive had them in my collection 12 years. JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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