Murdered Soldiers

[Chris]

I have researched the following soldier:

Pte 110733 James Martin - 5th Bn D.L.I. Son of James and Alice Martin of Bilston, and buried in Sedgley Roman Catholic Churchyard Staffordshire. Age 18. Private Martin was killed at Sutton barracks on Sunday 24th November 1918. He had been playing cards in a hut at Sutton and following a quarrel he was stabbed with a bayonnet in the body, dying later that day in Hull Infirmary.

Do any pals know of other soldiers who were murdered, and how the official records record the manner of their death? Pte. Martin is listed on the CWGC site as 'died on', rather than it saying murdered. Were the relatives of any soldiers who were unfortunate enougth to have been murdered while abroad on service simply told they were killed in action or were they informed of the true nature of their relatives death?

[bohpal]

Do any pals know of other soldiers who were murdered, ?

If you care to look at

www.shotatdawn.org.uk

you will find information about 303 allied servicemen who were murdered during the war.

45594

[paul guthrie]

I did not find him in SDGW. Why? He died on active service.

[Will O'Brien]

CSM Hughie Haynes - 2nd Welsh Rgt

Lance Sergeant Edwin Williams - 2nd Welsh Regt

Lance Corporal Robert Lewis - 1st Fortress Company, Royal Engineers

Private Alfred Edwards - 10th Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Lance Corporal Sneddon - 13th Royal Scots

Farrier Staff Sergeant James Pick - Army Sevice Corps

Sergeant Harold Collison DCM, MM - Military Police

2nd Lieutenant Wynell Lloyd - Royal Engineers

Private Barend De Vries - South African Army

All murdered by fellow soldiers executed for the crime of murder.

Will

[Jock Bruce]

4489 Pte Peter Steedman, 3/5 Seaforth, killed in a fight by a fellow soldier at Dunrobin (Sutherland). His assailant was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment, there were presumably circumstances which made it something less than murder.

'Died' 'Home' 17 Aug 15 according to SDitGW, 13 Sep 15 according to CWGC.

This is one of many 'tales from the 5th' I need to dig into. Once I've checked the facts and confirmed the date I will contact CWGC if their record is incorrect.

Jock

[Bob Coulson]

Christmas Day 1918 2nd Lt R Plumpton 6th Battalion Green Howards found murdered in a ravine near Murmansk. On January 14th 1919 B Coy made a raid on Russian quarters and the Lieutenants watch and government stores were found. The owner was tried and shot on February 5th.

Bob.

[rob elliott]

In the back of the history of the 10th York and Lancs there is a section on what happened to the remaining officers when the Battalion disbanded.The author of the history Capt R.M.Wilkinson,recalls an incident about himself trying to scrounge a car to organise the officers Christmas 1918 dinner,

to quote: 'and finally succeded in obtaining a field ambulance from Lt Col Rutherford D.S.O., R.A.M.C. who in April 1919 was found 'guilty but insane' of murdering Major M.C.C. Seton'.

Anyone know of these officers?

[Marc Thompson]

CSM Hughie Haynes - 2nd Welsh Rgt

CSM 5019 Hughie Job Hayes, was murdered by two of his men in January 1915. Privates Morgan and Price were executed a month later and are buried side by side in Bethune Town Cemetery. I recall that the register states that CSM Hayes died from accidental injuries.

Robert Graves gives an account of this incident in 'Goodbye to All that'.

Marc

[Guest stevebec]

In the AIF I know of Cpl Joe Durkin murdered by Cpl Verney Asser at the Training camp at Sutton Veny UK.

Asser was the only Australian soldier I know to be executed for his crime and only because he was given to UK civil justice not Australian Military.

He was not buried by the AIF or is his name recorded of our Roll of Honour or I beleive no CWG either.

S.B

[jim_davies]

Pte Fred Lee, Leicesters. The younger brother to my great-greatfather Sid Lee from Stamford, Lincs. Robbed and murdered on his way home from France in 1919, aged 19.

Not sure about Sd, but doesn't appear CWGC.

Jim

[Terry Denham]

A number of men mentioned in the above posts, both victims and their murderers, are stated not to be on the CWGC list.

All these men are entitled to be on the CWGC list and to have war grave status if their deaths were between the qualifying dates and they were embodied in a Commonwealth armed force at the time. This is simply a statement of the rules and not a moral judgement.

Most such men are inlcuded in the list (some mentioned above) but others are not. Why should one executed murderer be omitted and another not? There is even one case of a soldier executed for treason in WW2 being included and his name inscribed on a CWGC memorial as he still qualified.

I have been looking into such cases and would always be happy to hear from anyone with details or examples.

I have a theory which cannot be confirmed by CWGC that some men were given dishonourable discharges before their execution by a civil court and thus would not qualify for listing. I would be happy to hear from any experts who have a view on this - or who can shoot down the idea.

[Chris]

Thanks to all, for those replies, which have given me plenty to get my teeth into over the weekend.

Chris

[182 CEF]

Does "fraging" an unwanted Officer count as Murder? I have read in many accounts that Canadian WW1 Troops shot or Grenaded some younger English Officers that were attached to the Canadian units. It seems that many Canadians did not take kindly to being talked down to by these "New" Lts.

Dean Owen

[BMoorhouse]

Another murdered soldier was CSM Samuel Harris of the 7th Somersets. He was shot dead by a man that 'ran amok' while the battalion were in billets near Laventie on 18th October 1915.

Re whether these incidents were reported - in my experience it depends on the source. The above incident was variously reported in local newspapers as an accident and also as a murder. In my reading of WW1 local papers there was a significant lack of any effective censorship, especially early on in the war. Usually fairly accurate information was relayed, although with the identity of the battalion removed (eg a well known local officer of the Somerset Light Infantry wrote...).

Brendon.

[Broznitsky]

I have read in many accounts that Canadian WW1 Troops shot or Grenaded some younger English Officers

Dean, how interesting. Were these accounts from war diaries or unofficial after-war reminiscing?? Have you also encountered accounts of Canadian officers being fragged? I think Berton mentions in Vimy something anecdotal, but like most Pals I would like to see proof.

Peter (looking nervously around, jumping at the slightest noise )

[Andrew P]

Recently read a letter written in hospital by a wounded Gallipoli veteran in which he states that Sergeant Garland in his battalion was out just in front of the trench clearing scrub and was 'accidentally' shot dead by another Sergeant who knew he was there.

He didn't actually say it was murder, but that was the inference drawn.

Regards

Andrew

[brownag]

4489 Pte Peter Steedman, 3/5 Seaforth, killed in a fight by a fellow soldier at Dunrobin (Sutherland

'Died' 'Home' 17 Aug 15 according to SDitGW, 13 Sep 15 according to CWGC.

Jock

Just by chance the other day I was at The National Library looking up the Northern Times for Autumn 1915. The edition of 16th September 1915 has an article on the death of Pte Peter Steedman of Musselburgh who was killed by Robert Bailey of Belfast. After a fight started over some food Bailey kicked Steedman in the head and neck and he died from his injuries.

Bailey was only 17. Steadman was a 32 year old miner who left a wife and four young children.

The edition of 28th October has an article on Bailey's trial (he's also called Baillie in another edition, and Steedman is called Steadman). Unfortunately the microfilm copier was being used and didn't have time to transcribe it but I will get back to you as soon as I can with more info.

Cheers

Adam

[Terry Denham]

The date of this newspaper report suggests that the CWGC date of death is correct - or is the report of an event that happened some time before?

[captainkirk]

Dear Will

I stumbled upon this post and was fascinated by the South African murder victim. Any idea what the circumstances of his murder were? Was there a trial? Was someone convicted? How would I find out more about the incident?

Paul Kirk

Durban, RSA

[captainkirk]

Found a mention in Shot at Dawn... nasty business.

[robins2]

QUOTE (182 CEF @ Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:27:22 +0000)I have read in many accounts that Canadian WW1 Troops shot or Grenaded some younger English Officers

Dean, how interesting. Were these accounts from war diaries or unofficial after-war reminiscing?? Have you also encountered accounts of Canadian officers being fragged? I think Berton mentions in Vimy something anecdotal, but like most Pals I would like to see proof.

Peter (looking nervously around, jumping at the slightest noise )

please refer to the MANY ACCOUNTS, I would like to see or read them myself, pretty broad statement against Canadian Troops???????????

[Bardess]

11.07.16 Corporal HUBERT ex Transport Sergeant murders Sergeant WHITFIELD, present Transport Sergeant, and A/Corporal FOX at the Transport lines at 4:20am and then commits suicide. 11th Bn Rifle Brigade

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I record these in the AIF.

ALLEN Michael John 242 Pte 11 LHR B Sqn att 05 LHR (G) to Dvr to L/Cpl (aboriginal) used as a tracker to find the murder of a Gurkha 24-3-19

HANDS Ernest Arthur 846 Dvr 3 LHFA to T/CQMS MCo/CTC FGCM for Murder of 2715 Dafadar Fatteh Khan 38th CIH sentenced 7 years PS disch 3-10-18 SNLR

HERD David Birrell 1377 Pte 02 LHR 11R to T/Cpl A/Sgt found drowned in Nile had no money or ID suicide or murder buried Cairo War Memorial Cemetery Egypt brothers Rupert 13 LHR DoA and Leonard 3 DAC

HUMPHRIES Phillip James 2337 Pte 6 LHR 16R FGCM for murder of Mahomed Ali Kagi RTA penal service for life disch 22-10-19 SNLR forfitt all medals

KNOX Robert Gordon Duncan 15220 Pte 14 AGH HQ drowned body found in the nile 8-1-17 accident or murder buried Tell el Kebir War Memorial Cemetery Egypt brothers James AAMC, Francis 3 LHFA sister Hilda AANS died

MELLOR Richard 1709 Pte 01 LHR 11R to 4 Div Cyc Co 4-16 to 2 Anazc Cyc Bn 7-16 F&B to AIF depots UK 8-16 to XXII Corps Cyc Bn 1-18 NTOS to Aust Corps Cyc Bn 1-18 NTOS deserted 29-5-18 in UK reported as relist in British Army as Gnr Frank Oswald Wills RFA (253617) 4-18 to 50 Div TMB F&B sentenced to death for murder of a MP 16-5-19 shot 27-5-19 AKA real name Samuel Rowley Mellor buried Ste Marie Cemetery France

O'NEILL John 818 Pte AVC 4R to Dvr 6 MVS att 11 LHR to AASC MT disch rtn to Ireland murdered in an ambush by IRA while driving towards Dublin along Malahide Road in the Clontarf district of County Dublin

REARDON John 3637 Pte 04 LHR 28R to A Sqn ( att B2 ech MIA 19-11-17 at Ras Deiran reported murdered by natives body found at Akir 4-5-18 buried Ramleh War Cemetery Palestine

SETON Ronald Miles Cariston 213 Pte 02 LHR A Sqn C Troop WIA 4-7-15 hand at Popes post (G) to AIF depots UK 9-16 rtn 02 LHR 9-18 related Miles Maj AAMC murdered in UK by Col Norman Rutherford DSO

Cheers

S.B

[Guest SidGowin]

If you care to look at

www.shotatdawn.org.uk

you will find information about 303 allied servicemen who were murdered during the war.

45594

Not quite true, some had commited murder and had the same sentence passed as would have been the case for a civvy, the shell shocked soldiers are a different matter

[healdav]

I have come across several men who were murdered in the French army. One disturbed a thief going through his possessions in the front line and another died in an attack while he was on leave in Lyons.

When you consider the size of the armies the numbers don't seem much out of line of the normal statistics.