George Armstrong Custer Posted 3 April , 2008 Share Posted 3 April , 2008 Is there a UK release date yet? Don't know, but I'd be interested to know if anyone does. Hopefully it will be the original German subtitled rather than dubbed into English. From today's letters to the editor in 'The Times': Sir, I cannot think of any RAF fighter pilot who will demur at the production of a film about Manfred von Richthofen (report, April 1). For many years he has been held in great respect for his skill and conduct in the First World War. Although not aircrew myself, I recall many late nights in the mess singing the popular song The Red Baron. While serving at RAF Leuchars in Fife, we entertained pilots of the Richthofen Squadron from Germany during a Nato exercise. All were worthy successors to their famous leader. John Carder Sqn Ldr (ret’d), RAF 1961-77 Anstruther, Fife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 4 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2008 Don't know, but I'd be interested to know if anyone does. Hopefully it will be the original German subtitled rather than dubbed into English. From today's letters to the editor in 'The Times': It's set to be released here next week--I though the release date in the US and UK was the same? Maybe they got moved back as well when the German release was delayed. The trailers would indicate it's going to be in English for release outside of Germany. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bennitt Posted 6 April , 2008 Share Posted 6 April , 2008 This is an AFP feature on the movie. I really am in two or more minds about going to see it. Authentic it does not seem to be. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jHcGfL...KjvY53eca9S3jtQ cheers Martin B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 6 April , 2008 Share Posted 6 April , 2008 Just read a critique in today's newspaper, and the German paper clearly was not writing favorably of the movie. Too little budget caused little realistic scenes and too much Holywood style actions they said. The resumee says that the movie does not do justice to this fine airman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 9 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2008 Just read a critique in today's newspaper, and the German paper clearly was not writing favorably of the movie. Too little budget caused little realistic scenes and too much Holywood style actions they said. The resumee says that the movie does not do justice to this fine airman I've been seeing the same reviews. We were going to go to the premiere tonight, but as we read the reviews the movie slipped back to the "let's go sometime this weekend" category. I see they are showing "von Richthofen and Brown," on German TV tonight. One of my least favorite movies of all time. I've seen the dumb add for the TV movie all week with Matthias Schweighöfer popping in at the end...not exactly stellar marketing for the new movie. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 I saw the movie today, and really liked the action scenes in the air, the planes and the battle-space scenes. But oh my God what did they do to this hero knight! A little boy leading a pack of schoolkids in their halloween costumes, turning into a pacifist and being naughty to the Emperor. Hollywood's best greetings. When will they stop producing war movies with beautiful women sleeping in a romantic front-line wing commanders tent next to his evil-cute red Fokker? Wow what a service, the aide asks him out of the tent for flying duties, with the Baron's woman lover watching him taking off in her sexy negligee, right next to the chief mechanic? Come on, this was the 2nd day after the premiere and the cinema was packed with exactly 12 customers. I bet after next week they will remove the movie from screen.....sorry have to get drunk now, how else shall I survive my coming nightmare dreams.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 11 April , 2008 Share Posted 11 April , 2008 When will they stop producing war movies w/o a beautiful woman sleeping in a romantic frontline wing commanders tent next to his red Fokker? Excellent metaphorical imagery, Egbert - skating on thin ice....but excellent! Sorry to hear from your other comments, though, that the Baron has had a makeover and been given 21st century sensibilities. They can never bring themselves to portray such historical characters with the world-views and codes of behavior of their own milieu and era. This film is another missed opportunity, then, by the sound of it.. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 12 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2008 Egbert, Komm jetzt, don't tell me you were surprised? You could see it coming from the trailers! Why mention Hollywood? Perhaps if it had been made there it would have been as good as "Fly boys!" Oh, that's a good one!!! I never thought I'd be saying this but, thank God we have the French so there are at least a few modern good Great War movies out there. My wife and I are going to see it this afternoon. I'll let you know what we think. Her views are always interesting as she looks at things from a whole different perspective. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 My wife and I are going to see it this afternoon. I'll let you know what we think. Her views are always interesting as she looks at things from a whole different perspective. Paul My wife was also with me - she saw the movie from a different perspective, she sit in row 14 seat 13 with a slight different view angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 12 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2008 My wife was also with me - she saw the movie from a different perspective, she sit in row 14 seat 13 with a slight different view angle No, I'm serious. She is very interested to see it, and I'm very interested to see what she thinks. She thought the movie "Stalingrad," was great, I thought it was a stinker. We already have our seats reserved in a Kuschelbank so no different perspectives for us!! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 12 April , 2008 Share Posted 12 April , 2008 She thought the movie "Stalingrad," was great, I thought it was a stinker. Yes, I was very disappointed with 'Stalingrad'. Potentially, it had a lot going for it. It was produced by the same people behind the excellent 'Das Boot'. And it was based on the novel 'Stalingrad,' part of the trilogy 'Moscow,' 'Stalingrad,' 'Berlin' by Theodor Plievier. Plevier was a German Communist who took part in the naval mutinies of 1918, and was an emigre in Russia after the advent of the Third Reich, when he was involved with the Nationalkomitee Freies Deutschland, which attempted to convert the captured Stalingrad Generals and senior officers to the Soviet cause. I knew one of these generals well, and he was one of the 'incorrigibles' who totally rejected these overtures. Yet, despite his ideological distance from Plievier, his opinion was that Plievier's book gave a very realistic depiction of conditions for the 6th Army trapped inside the Stalingrad 'Kessel'. Such promising source material and the 'Das Boot' production team augered well for a definitive German examination of the trauma of Stalingrad. Yet the result was a huge disappointment - it didn't even have the authentic 'look' which had distinguished 'Das Boot' and the neutered storyline and characters failed to engage - and post-war sensibilities were allowed to intrude as they, unfortunately, seem to have done in the new 'Red Baron.' ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 14 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2008 Well, I saw it. 2 1/2 years after I started this thread I finally got to see the movie. Wow, where to start? Since I can remember I have been fascinated by airplanes and Great War aviation. I was one of those kids with all the model planes hanging of the ceiling of my bedroom when I was a boy. I went thinking I would hate this movie after all I'd read about it in the papers. I didn't. It wasn't what I expected at all, but perhaps because I expected so little I went with an open mind. This movie is about von Richthofen. An interpretation of von Richthofen. It's not about airplanes, it's about one man, and the war. There is a lot of symbolism in the movie, deep symbolism, and I think a lot of people are not going to like the movie or the way they show the man. von Richthofen playing in a field chasing a fellow pilot around? This isn't the icon strutting around on film. It's a young man, who died when he 25. Much has been said, and will be said about the character of Kaeti, his love interest in the film. I don't think she represents what the director is saying happened at all. I think she represents what he didn't have--a chance to love, or live a normal life. Dead at 25. Visually the I found the movie mesmerizing at times, it has a certain Gothic feel. Very dark, and darker as it progresses. For those of you who love air action there is some of that--not as much as I'm sure audiences want or expect, but it's there. The CGI is outstanding, and the visual representation of air combat was breathtaking. Enough. I think a lot of you are not going to like this movie at all. It's not going to be for everyone. I'm glad I went. I think I'll be thinking and feeling about this movie for quite some time. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 14 April , 2008 Share Posted 14 April , 2008 Thanks Paul - your brief review has made me look forward to it, which doesnt normally happen after having been let down with recent WW1 films. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 14 April , 2008 Share Posted 14 April , 2008 Well, this is certainly getting intriguing, Paul! Given your and Egbert's differing impressions of the movie it's one we're all going to have to check out for ourselves before we'll know what side of the fence we'll be on! ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 Right GAC, judge yourself! I did already and I put it in the same category like the recent Christmas Truce movie with opera singers joining the fighters to include overnight- camping in the frontline trench. I see this movie from a German perspective which certainly is different from Pauls US persepective. It does not pay respect to this fine airman but fits the typical pacifist streams, so PC correct here in Europe...certainly no bio correct movie. Its NOT about the true life of Richthofen, its all about lets-go-out-to-the-cinema and have some fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 15 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2008 Right GAC, judge yourself! I did already and I put it in the same category like the recent Christmas Truce movie with opera singers joining the fighters to include overnight- camping in the frontline trench. I see this movie from a German perspective which certainly is different from Pauls US persepective. It does not pay respect to this fine airman but fits the typical pacifist streams, so PC correct here in Europe...certainly no bio correct movie. Its NOT about the true life of Richthofen, its all about lets-go-out-to-the-cinema and have some fun Egbert, You bring up an important point--probably THE point of the whole movie. It is a matter of perspectives. But, this is where I think you make an error. It's about GERMAN perspectives. I've noticed more than once you seem quick to point the finger at America (your earlier reference to Hollywood) and even bringing up my US perspective. This movie isn't fascinating because of my perpective, it's fascinating because it shows A GERMAN PERSPECTIVE. I'm sorry, but to be honest an American production wouldn't have been half as interesting. I've been to Karneval/Fasching--we don't have half the imagination your countrymen do when they want to. If the film would have been made in America we would have ended up with a bunch of chisel-faced Prussians strutting around the screen ala "The Blue Max." When Kurt Wolff shows up in the movie wearing his sleeping hat and knickersbockers, come on--that was 100% German--no American could have even thought of that, or had the guts to put it on screen. You mention that it's not about the true life of von Richthofen--what is the true life of von Richthofen? The propaganda fueled book he wrote while he was still alive? As I wrote before it's an interpretation of von Richthofen, and a damn interesting one. When I saw the movie there was an older gentleman in the theater a few rows in front of me, he easily could have been in his early 80's. About 3/4 of the way through the movie he got up with a grunt and a grumble and left the theater. I can easily see why. He wanted to see his icon on the screen. He wanted the von Richthofen I'm sure he read about when he was a boy. The movie isn't meant to be the real, most accurate life of von Richthofen, the director said that clearly in the aticles I read in the paper. I find this all fascinating. Do you think von Richthofen never had sex? This floors me that Germans are so wound up in knots about this. I don't think he was some kind of fighting monk who only existed in the cockpit. Werner Voss never sat around in his old gray coat tinkering with engines all the time? Actually, he did. von Richthofen didn't walk around with that old sweater on, actually he did. The scene with von Hindenburg has also been mentioned in the papers here. Of cource von Richthofen never got in this kind of argument with von Hindenburg--but that's not the point, it's not von Hindenburg, it's a symbol of German militarism on the screen, and it's not von Richthofen, it's US on the screen, watching all this carnage while von Hindenburg blathers on about final victory. On your last point-- "its all about lets-go-out-to-the-cinema and have some fun." Did you think that was fun? I was near to tears at the end of the movie when they showed the pictures of the real characters and what became of them. That was one of the darkest movies I've seen for a long time. The night-fighting sequence was simply nightmarish. I wouldn't put this movie in the same category as "Joyeux Noël," or "Flyboys." There's a lot more "Johnny got his gun," here than "Flyboys," and I say thank goodness for that. As an American, as much as I'd like to take credit for this movie, I don't think we can. My hats off to the Germans for making one of the deeper movies I've seen in a long time. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redorchestra Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 Nice to see some positive reviews of the film. I want to like it, but I found 'Flyboys' so awful that I don't want to be so disappointed again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 I stand firm on all my previous remarks -its just another nice try...... Please forgive me if I do not respond to sex in the trenches and `slight` history- adjustments for the sake of money making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 In anticipation of eventually getting to see the film I fear that what Egbert states will prove correct, but hope what Paul mentions will be the case. Meantime I wonder at a 'soul-searching' Rittmeister, who I understood to be quite a competent killer, flying alongside his victims on a parallel course, and then kicking the rudder bar to provide yaw, with his guns raking the other machine from stem to stern in the process. Should I wear goggles and a flying helmet when I see it? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 15 April , 2008 Share Posted 15 April , 2008 Should I wear goggles and a flying helmet when I see it? Ian No, no take a clean handkerchief and cry, cry about the historical misrepresentation. Cry when the attractive French/German-frontline-sleeping-next-to-Fokker-trench lady visits the grave of young Richthofen.....this is what we call a true and heartbreaking Hollywood scene (I believe the sun even sets, but am not sure as I am still distracted by my dreams in sleepless nights, the days after Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 15 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2008 I stand firm on all my previous remarks -its just another nice try...... Please forgive me if I do not respond to sex in the trenches and `slight` history- adjustments for the sake of money making. Egbert, You have an odd way of looking at everything as an argument. I don't think anyone is trying to change your view. After having known you for some time I don't think there is any changing you view. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hederer Posted 15 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2008 I stand firm on all my previous remarks -its just another nice try...... Please forgive me if I do not respond to sex in the trenches and `slight` history- adjustments for the sake of money making. Egbert, You have an odd way of looking at everything as an argument. I don't think anyone is trying to change your view. After having known you for some time I don't think there is any changing you view. Anyway, even if the film is controversial we shouldn't forget to honor the man. RIP: Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 16 April , 2008 Share Posted 16 April , 2008 His gravestone does not look to be in the best condition? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 16 April , 2008 Share Posted 16 April , 2008 Ian, If you look at the wider shot in the series of photos Paul has linked to on another thread, you will see that what appears to be a crack is in fact the space between two memorial stones: http://www.werkost.com/vonRichthofen_Grab.htm Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 16 April , 2008 Share Posted 16 April , 2008 Ah - ok, thanks Mick. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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