Guild Of Battlefield Guides Ypres weekend

[ypresman]

Steve

I was saying about the 'Guild' as a whole, not as in standard dress, though that is another issue.

I'm not referring to individuals, apart from this one occassion, ie my friend.

As to the rest..time will tell methinks.

(I hope someone will answer my questions one day...)

But anyways enjoy your time at Menin, in the Barbor.....

[ypresman]

and that brings me to my next point...

Why is a civilian organisation wearing blazers, shirts and ties, with an exceedingly large badge (that from afar resembles a military badge) and strutting under the Menin Gate?

Why?

Surely that is only for Orgs, Assoc, Regs, ex-forces and recognised bodies?

[the gunners dream]

ypresman,

I know I said I wouldn't reply, but I'm a little confused at the image you are trying to portray the Guild in?

Where in this image are there any blazers with large badges etc, unless you are talking about the cloth badge?

Now I wasn't there, but looking at this image it doesn't seem to show the kind of Guild guide you are trying to portray? Maybe some bad fashion sense, but no blazers!

The other thing you mention is the badge size? My badge is set on the lapel of my Barbour, it certainly doesn't weigh me down and I'm a little confused at the size of badge you are trying to describe?

I still feel that the website answers all the questions you are asking? If they don't contact the Guild secretery and ask him. Graeme Cooper would be more than happy to respond to your questions privately or publically.

The question has also been asked 'Who is supporting the Guild?'

Here is the list so far:

1 am web-site creations

Allways Travel

Anglia Battlefield Tours

Anglo Zulu War Historical Society

Ocean Villas Tea Rooms

Bartletts Battlefield Journeys

Battlebus

Battlefield Guides & Maps

Battlefields of the World

Battlefields Review

Battlefields Trust

The War Research Society

Brabers & Lemmens Battlefield GPS

Chocolaterie Hans De Groote –Ypres

Chocolaterie Peter De Groote -Ypres

Complete World Travel

Cooper's Waterloo Tours

Eye Witness Tours

Galina International

Green Howards Museum

Grapeshot Tours

Helion Books

Holts Tours Ltd

Leger Holidays

Memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917 National Army Museum

NST

Past Endeavours

Family History Monthly Magazine

Old Abbey Hotel - Lo-Reninge, Ypres

Osprey Publishing

Passchendaele Museum 1917

Pen & Sword Publishing

Prever's

Remembrance Travel

Richard Ellis Battlefield Photography

Royal Air Force Marham

Royal Air Force Uxbridge

Royal Artillery Historical Society

Salient Points

The Manchester Regt 1914-1918

The Royal British Legion

The Somme Tourist Board

TravelScope

Toc H Poperinge

Toye Group

Titan Group

Tours Designed

Varlet Farm

Western Front Association

The list grows monthly and more and more people approach the secretery with requests for Guild members for guiding purposes. If there are Guides out there giving the Guild a bad name, then why is it that these organisations come back for more?

Most recently the Guild was approached by a TV company interested in using the Guild for experts on various battles with the WWII timeline. See this link for info on that and other Guild news.

http://www.battleguides.org/news.htm

Surely this can only help other guides who want to progress and develop their skills?

Our own patron is probably the most renowned historian and guide in the business, unless you disagree? It has already been mentioned that he has been seen to do the simple things that members are asking i.e. speaking French etc. Would someone as famous as this put his name to an organsiation that has a bad reputation? Having met him, I can state that he is exactly the same in the flesh as you see on the TV. Or perhaps you class him as part of the blazer wearing brigade you so readily try describe us as?

I will conclude on a point I have already raised. If one of our members is out there bringing everyone else into disrepute then it needs to be reported and this guide brought to the attention of the GBG council.

You stated this:

'Do you wish me to describe this member? Do you wish for me to complain? Its not my style. I was merely pointing out the fact , as you say, the holier than thou attitude.'

I'm afarid to make an accusation like that and not want to carry it further is not good enough. We cannot develop as a Guild if people are all too quick to make accusations, but not have the conviction to carry through the allegation. Even if it is for the sake of your friend who has been put off going back to Flanders by this incident, you must agree that you cannot allege something like this and then leave it at that.

Steve

[salientguide]

and that brings me to my next point...

Why is a civilian organisation wearing blazers, shirts and ties, with an exceedingly large badge (that from afar resembles a military badge) and strutting under the Menin Gate?

Why?

Surely that is only for Orgs, Assoc, Regs, ex-forces and recognised bodies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since when has the participation in a ceremony of remembrance been the sole preserve of " Orgs, Assoc, regs, ex-forces and recognised bodies"? Perhaps it indicates the Guild Of Battlefield Guides IS a recognised body and continues to be increasingly so.

What does it matter wether any body or individual is civilian, services,emergency services whatever, anyone is entitled to pay their respects at any cemetary or memorial without exception. What were we doing there, just that -paying respects

Why on this occasion jackets and ties, because it is a formal occasion.

As for "strutting about" oh dear when what has been a fairly reasonable debate descends to insulting invective then -- arguement lost I think.

The offer still stands, Contact the secreatry come to the annual meeting and actually meet the members. There's also a great programme see the website.

[salientguide]

Have managed to compress this picture, sorry its quite grainy. Image shows Guild Chaplain Rev Ian Evans, Army Chaplains Dept returning from laying the wreath on behalf of the Guild. The event, as usual these days was fully attended by a large crowd or congregation. The majority of folks in front are likewise members of civilian organisations that also laid wreaths. The ceremony was also attended by a detachment of junior soldiers and sea cadets all of which illustrates the eclectic and inclusive nature of the Last Post ceremony these days SG

[Guest GMCOOPER]

The Guild of Battlefield Guides

My name is Graeme Cooper and I am Secretary to the Guild of Battlefield Guides. From recent Forum postings about the Guild I thought it appropriate to clarify some aspects concerning reader’s statements and questions.

1. QUESTION: Who sets the guiding standards of the Guild?

ANSWER: The Guild does. This is because there is currently no other body or organisation out there to set a validation standard for us. The Blue Badged Guide syllabus does not cater for Battlefield guides and other organisations seem to only tackle the knowledge aspect of battlefield guiding. 40 guides got together one weekend in 2002 and decided after a great deal of debate that they needed for our craft some sort of kite mark standard to work towards. The Guild’s belief is that good guiding is not so much about what a guide knows, that is expected, but as important, is about how he or she presents it. Hence our validation standards within the Guild centre on 3 principles, knowledge, care and presentational skills.

Chris Scott, an experienced member and college lecturer sat down with a think tank of experienced guides and produced the framework for the validation schedule that you see on the Guild website. The Guild was in a ‘chicken and egg’ situation. Rather like who tested the RFC pilots in the early days?

The Guild had to start somewhere. We tested what we had come up with in the presence of a neutral monitor and eventually validation rules and procedures were ratified by 53 Guild members at the following AGM. So yes, the Guild has set the standards for its members in a way that most organisations would do at conception when there is no pre set bench mark available or body to create the requirement. If any reader would care to witness a validation in progress I am quite sure they would see that those who have set the standards have done a fair and very credible job.

2. QUESTION: But what are these Standards?

ANSWER: The Guild's standards were set by professional and non commercial guides to embrace the requirements of the customer, the guide and the trade. An example: No Guild member should, while working for a tour provider, ever attempt to steal custom whilst on tour.

3 QUESTION: Do we not all set good standards?

ANSWER: We would all like to think we do. Certainly most and the vast majority of Guides have a pride that theirs is of a high if not excelent standard. The Guild needed a bench mark to enable it to establish if it was achieving its Mission Statement 'To analyse, develop and raise the understanding and practice of battlefield guiding' or not.

4. QUESTION: Who Validates the Validators? … Who tests the testers?

ANSWER: Again chicken and egg. The Guild does and will continue to do so whilst the Guild is in its fledgling years. At each validation of a candidate the Validator is monitored by a verifier, also Badged guide and Validator trained. At some sessions the Validation team will monitor both the Validator and Verifier. All Validator’s assessments of candidates attempting written assignments are reviewed by the Head of Validation and his committee periodically. All reports are held by the Validation Secretary.

5. QUESTION: Was the 'Guild' started to show non Guild members the way and to set them standards?

ANSWER: No, certainly not. These standards were set only for those who want to join the Guild.

6. QUESTION: Is the Guild inclusive?

ANSWER: The Guild is inclusive to everyone with the pre requisite that potential members share the aims and values of the Guild. A new member joined last week via a recommendation. He has never guided before and told me that on retirement it was his aim to become a guide. He had read the website and thought that here was is an organisation that could help him achieve his goal. For him it was a matter of choice. A teacher in say middle England who takes his/her school year groups to Naesby battlefield thrice a year can gain the badge. As a teacher she would know how to present, communicate and I am sure knows far more about customer care than a few of us. The same Guild standards would apply to her as they would do to the new member who in time might want to start his validation.

7. QUESTION: What are the reasons for a Guide not wanting to join the Guild?

ANSWER: There are many as you can imagine. Some guides want to protect their knowledge and might not relish the thought of sharing their life’s hard won gems, or be quizzed about their specialities of which they are very proud. Some guides are happy to do so, others are not. Some guides might feel they are too old, some might fear validating in front of one’s peers…., some may want to remain apart or perhaps in their own view, above the guild. For some, expense within their budget prevents membership.…. another club, magazine or organisation to belong to. I even know guides that just like to guide tours by themselves remaining in a zone of there own choosing. Why not? All reasons for not wanting to join such an organisation must be respected accordingly.

8. QUESTION: Does the Guild disciplined its members if they do something wrong?

ANSWER: All complaints, and they must be formal, about Guild members are investigated. Thereafter the Guild’s Code of Conduct requirements are actioned by the Guild Council if necessary. If it is proved that a member has brought the name of the Guild into disrepute then measures up to and including expulsion from the Guild may be applied. The website gives further details.

9. QUESTION: Who recognises the Guilds qualifications?

ANSWER: To date a fair few organisations in the trade, a growing number of the public, both formally and informally and some 139 members of the Guild. No recognised provider has made the Guild a pre requisite. To date the public and the trade that have experienced the Guild have spoken well of it.

Examples:

• Stephanie and Hans of De Groote's chocolate shop in Ypres. They are proud to associate with the Guild as they have seen the standards set and are very complimentary for example of the way that our members escort school groups around Ypres.

• Anglia Battlefield Tours run by Alain Chissel. 18 of his guides are now members and his company are about to applyfor the Guild Logo which is to be launched in November.

• House of Lords All Parliamentary Battlefields and Heritage Group. Richard Holmes, our Patron recently gave a presentation to the House of Lords Group on the ethos and value of the Guild. The result of that is that the Group have asked that Guild Members be their eyes and ears on the battlefield so if the Group can help preserve, promote or protect a site then it has some form of reliable information. So the Guild collectively is doing what each and every guide would normally do in their efforts to assist local authorities.

• The Battlefields Trust – The Guild has close links with the trust. Four Guild Council members are also Trust members.

A list of organisations who support the Guild is on the website.

10. QUESTION: Is the Guild a regulatory body?

ANSWER: We are not a regulatory body nor are we a business in the trading sense. The Guild is on record never to be come one. We only regulate ourselves to a standard we deem appropriate by which we can conduct our craft efficiently and safely.

11. QUESTION; Why do we wear ties?

ANSWER: Pride, I suppose. Identifying ourselves and a way of bonding and branding our camaraderie. It makes us feel good. I suppose any team that feels that way does it. Chelsea or Scunthorpe Football Clubs, the London Fire Brigade or even the 13 members of the Fan Makers Guild who wear a pin badge. Suits are not the requirement but we do wear Black Tie for our Annual Guild Dinner. When we are together on Guild weekends the tie tends to bond us all. It is what the Guild wants to do.

12. QUESTION: Is the Guild for Military and ex-military personnel alone?

ANSWER: There is no rank in the Guild apart from those who we have decided to honour for their services to our craft, namely Professor Richard Holmes and Major Tonie Holt. We do have a retired General who is a Napoleonic guide. His name is John and is referred to and addressed as such by all members. There are in fact more members in the Guild without service experience than those with. 7 of them serve on the Guild’s Council.

Additionally, the Guild has 9 lady members and 17 members from outside the UK including - Belgium, Holland, France, Austria, Australia, Cyprus, and South Africa. The reason for just under half of the membership being service or ex-service is that quite naturally they have acquired an interest and developed a skill from their prime employment for battlefields. Through this employment they also acquired their duty of care and presentational skills.

13. QUESTION: Is language training a requirement in the Guild.

ANSWER: No. However this important question was raised by a reader and it will be raised in the correct manner at the AGM. Please note: The Guild do not train guides but continue a programme of Continual Professional Development (CPD).

14. QUESTION: What are the benefits of the Guild?

ANSWER: To shorten this post may I refer readers to the Guild website. www.battleguides.org

A Personal Recollection

To give a personal example re Question 14 ‘What are the benefits of the Guild?’ From my experience there have been four aspects that have been invaluable to me as a guide since joining the Guild.

1. On joining the Guild I very quickly discovered that as a guide I was not as good as I thought I was.

2. I soon became better than I ever was.

3. I realised that I had joined a meaningful brotherhood (which now includes a few sisters) that covers all eras of history and that it was founded on good camaraderie and the enjoyment of my craft.

4. On gaining the Badge I became very proud of the fact that my peers had formally acknowledged my skills.

Should any reader have any questions about the Guild of Battlefield Guides then please do contact me privately or via the Forum. Thank you.

Regards

Graeme Cooper

Secretary and Qualified Battlefield Guide (Badge No 007)

Guild of Battlefield Guides

Cooper’s Court

Moreton

Ongar

Essex

CM5 0LE

Tel: 01277 890214

E-Mail: secretary@battleguides.org

www.battleguides.org

[the gunners dream]

Hi All,

Just got back from the Somme and was rather disgusted with some of the British visitors and their attitude to language.

It's funny until this post I was rather blinkered and now having discussed this with you all I'd like to pass on my experiences whilst over there.

At Tommy's Cafe I heard one Brit brag to his mate that:

'They try and get me to speak French here, but I refuse to learn'.

At Avrils's, where I know the waitresses can speak basic English, but as we all have stated it's nice to try. A group walked in, many of which had never been to the Somme, and immediately assumed that the waitress could understand English.

At the hotel where we stayed in Arras:

Waitress: 'Votre chosir pour aperitif?'

Brit: 'Yeah, 2 beers please.'

I try to emphasise to my groups that if they can't speak French and won't try then at the very least let me speak for them, which is what I did on my most recent tour.

There are times when I inwardly cringe at us Brits.

Steve

[salientguide]

Steve perhaps shows what a valid point chrislock had. Some of the British, or is it just the English?, seem to take a perverse pleasure in not speaking the language, although many are happy to batter away in schoolboy French. But Dutch Chris that is truely a difficault language especially the prononunciation. I once spent a week at a radiography conference at The Hague staying at Schevingen but I could not pronounce the towwn other than an English way even with tuition from a dutch staff nurse we had working with us.

By the way Chris I have drawn your posts to the attention of Graeme Cooper Guild Secretary, who posted above. He has promised to draw it to Councils attention.next Council meeting will probably be at the AGM weekend RAF Uxbridge

end of November. terrific programme, talk by the patron Prof Richard Holmes and the Corps of Drums beating retreat for us and station personnel see website if anyone interested. SG

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Erwin

May I ask what you mean about "not everyone is happy with this.Especially those out for easy money"?  I am not happy about the 'Guild', but I do not look for easy money. I do this with a passion, but everyone needs to be paid.

Give me the badge 'Brother Guildy'!......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, you may ask. I do not know your way of guiding, but reading your posts I have not the impression that you are envisaged by what I wrote.

Everyone needs to be paid, and that is no problem (I am also doing a lot of guiding, paid and unpaid, and it helps me with buying new books).

But being often "in the field" myself I have noticed that there are many ways of guiding.

I do not think I am the standard. If I see how some guides are doing their job I am full with praise. But everyone knows there are a lot of cowboys around: buying some "Battlefield Europe" guides and off they go (nothing wrong about these books off course), money in the pocket and off for the next tourist to rip off.

I know for sure that the badged guides of the Guild have a tremendous background and a strong ethos, and this can only improve the battlefield guiding. Does this means that non- GBG- guides are no good? Not at all, but if all the good ones would join then the others would have a difficult time. And to be serious: if you know your job, why not try to demonstrate that in validating and have it acknowledged by the badge at the end (and I have still a long way to go, so am not speaking for myself).

Erwin (Flemish member of the Guild- speaking Dutch

[Mr_Sunray]

Hi All,

Just got back from the Somme and was rather disgusted with some of the British visitors and their attitude to language.

There are times when I inwardly cringe at us Brits. 

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to agree. I think we should all at least make an attempt to speak the lingo.

However, I do think we are somewhat at a disadvantage. For example, recently at a German service station a few Spaniards tried to buy alcohol and were challenged by the assistant, who was German. After unsuccesfully asking for their 'Ausweis' she switched to English, "your passport'. They understood that.

My point is, that English is the international language and is spoken to high standard by many Europeans. For Europeans, the decision as to which language to learn is an easy one, English. For the British, you have to choose between French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch .... etc.

I still think we should make more of an effort, though.

Steve

[the gunners dream]

Steve ,

I do agree with you on the points raised and English is probably the easiest language you can learn, but I think we are one of the laziest nations when it comes to languages.

A Belgian friend of mine speaks English, French, Flemish, German and Italian! And he's not the only European I know that can do that.

Another European friend often apologises for his bad English, but he speaks it better than I do?

I have travelled exstensively through Europe and I always try my best to try and speak the lingo, but many of my countrymen don't and I find it rather embarressing sometimes when I hear the phrase, 'Don't you speak any English?'

Steve

[BatterySergeantMajor]

I understand the problem with learning Dutch and do not bother that much.

What I don't understand is that British visitors are coming over without even the slightest knowledge of Belgian situation, and so try to speak French in Flanders.

To make things clear: Ypres area is in Flanders. Flanders is part of the Belgian federation and has is it's own government. The Flemish are the majority in Belgium (about 60% of the Belgians), so consequently Dutch is the majority language in Belgium, and French is the language of a (large) minority.

These are essentials. I think we might expect that this is known by foreign visitors. Not knowing this would be similar to Flemish people which go to Edinburgh and think the locals are English.

Yours Aye

Erwin

[the gunners dream]

Erwin,

Thanks for reminding us how Belgium is made up.

My friend I mentioned comes from the Flanders area. When I served with him on a NATO peace keeping mission it was interesteing to see the difference between the Belgian contingent.

The 2 guys I had in my company got by by speaking French, but both came from completely differnt parts of the country and both had different languages as their primary dialect e.g. one considered French his first language and the other spoke Flemish.

Will you be coming over for the Guild weekend at the end of the month? It would be good to meet you then.

Steve

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Steve

Sorry, I am so heavily involved in the preparation of the 2007 activities ("Passchendaele 1917- 2007") that I haven't the time to come over to Uxbridge. We (= the Memorial Museum Passchendaele 1917) are working on a very ambitious series of activities then, and some very important actions cannot be postponed.

Very likely you will hear more about this in the fortcoming weeks, but the members of the Guild who came over a few weeks ago had already a preview.

I hope we will meet somewhere in the future (2007?)

Erwin

[the gunners dream]

Erwin,

No probs, I'm sorry that I missed that visit due to work committments, like you said there's always 2006/2007!

Steve

[Mr_Sunray]

What I don't understand is that British visitors are coming over without even the slightest knowledge of Belgian situation, and so try to speak French in Flanders.

Erwin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I made this faux pas when visiting Ieper this year. This was my first real visit to Belgium and I had just spent the best part of 8 days driving around Bavaria and returned via Bastogne & Ypres (Ieper). I had spent a night in Waterloo on the outward leg of the journey on my way to Munich. Of course, in Waterloo they speak French, in Bastogne, also part of Walloon, they too speak French. I decided to stop in Ypres on the return journey to Calais, and thinking that because of it's former name (Ypres) and it's close proximity to France that French would spoken here too.

I guess I should have realised this would not be the case when I discovered that Ypres was in fact called Ieper (although my TomTom sat nav still showed the town as Ypres with ieper in brackets).

Oh well ignorance is bliss.

Steve

[Rupert]

I won't get into the guide debate (would have loved someone, anyone to show me around on my first visit to the Somme!) but the language thing does prickle me somewhat. As an Aussie who's lived in Paris for ten years I can speak the lingo but I'm surprised at how many Anglo visitors make the trip to the battlefields without learning the basic courtesies. In France, especially, polite formailtiy is everything. it's part of the culture. In a shop or a restaurant/café for example, it's absolutely imperitive to observe these. Normally the proprieter will offer you a polite 'Bonjour Madame/Monsieur' as soon as you walk in. The amount of times I've seen this ignored by mostly Brits and Aussies around the Somme is appaling. Asking for directions, cigarettes or coffee or meals must be followed by a 's'il vous plait (madame/monsieur optional and appreciated)'; if not it is literally like asking someone 'a coffee, you *******'. It's that bad. And the same courtesy upon leaving, of course. Part of this is the French don't have an equilvalent of 'mate', as in, 'can I have a cup of coffee mate?' Well, they do, but you'd only ever use it with someone you know well. I cringe when French friends tel me they find Anglo- Saxons 'rude.' That one is normally reserved for the Anglos about the French! It's amazing, with just a few easily-learned words and expressions how much difference it makes. Especially in France. And I'm sure Belgium. Anywhere really. you blokes must spend loads of time in cars or vans or buses. Invest in an inexpensive French/Dutch language CD for the car. A brilliant way to learn. I taught myself a few basics in portugese like that and it was amazing the difference in attitide.

anyway rant over and see you all in the tommie Bar next July!