corkhead100 Posted 8 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2005 This is a photo of a sand finished helmet (bottom right) which I was comparing with the helmet in question. This helmet is 100% American, liner and shell, I had just naturally assumed that the finish was as well. It is a finish that I have only seen on American helmets on ebay. Ihope that I have not offended Chris by questioning this, but I find it is very educational Best regards to all, Malc. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/milit...view=t&.hires=t <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If U.S. didn't use sand, can anybody explain this helmet that I bought from a seller in Ohio,? marked ZE or ZF44 with a liner that is clearly marked A.J. Bates, Webster, Mass. Best regards, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 8 October , 2005 Share Posted 8 October , 2005 If U.S. didn't use sand, can anybody explain this helmet that I bought from a seller in Ohio,? marked ZE or ZF44 with a liner that is clearly marked A.J. Bates, Webster, Mass. Best regards, Malc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Malc, The US helmets did not have sand as a factory applied finish. Telling the difference between a sanded or sawdusted helmet is more difficult to tell than you might imagine. You can't in a photo and difficult doing a side by side in person comparison without scraping the finish. The sawdust also has a sharp grit finish when applied. The top image shows an American helmet side by side with a Brit helmet. Very difficult to tell whether the US has sawdust and the Brit has sand. All of my American helmets are the same finish per spec. (Sawdust) Unless of course they were repainted which I have a few repainted. Both the US and Britain (MKI) used the same method for factory applied paint except for the use of sand or sawdust. The shells were applied with a durable coat of paint then the sand or sawdust was applied and then the helmet shells were heat dried at 200deg F. for one hour. A second coat was applied with a higher pigment content (Less durable but less reflective). The bottom photo shows the liners. Like I said in a previuos message all my US helmets have grey top liners and none of my British (which doesn't help to say the original Helmet is 100% British). The British Helmet is not the same as the top helmet. The top helmet is unissued but has the donut. I thought that since this one does not have the donut it would be more similar to the American Helmet. Also Chris P, the FS 8 technically does not refer to batch or lot. The British Helmet specification calls for the shell to be marked with manufacturers initials and heat number. So what is the difference between heat number and batch? (only a minor difference) Heat refers to all the steel put a through a single heating in any particular furnace. These could include several batches of steel, or lots of partcular steel. So the number can be used chrnologically for a manufactureer but does not refer to a particular lot of steel and more reflects the furnace usage. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 9 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2005 Malc, The US helmets did not have sand as a factory applied finish. Telling the difference between a sanded or sawdusted helmet is more difficult to tell than you might imagine. You can't in a photo and difficult doing a side by side in person comparison without scraping the finish. The sawdust also has a sharp grit finish when applied. The top image shows an American helmet side by side with a Brit helmet. Very difficult to tell whether the US has sawdust and the Brit has sand. All of my American helmets are the same finish per spec. (Sawdust) Unless of course they were repainted which I have a few repainted. Both the US and Britain (MKI) used the same method for factory applied paint except for the use of sand or sawdust. The shells were applied with a durable coat of paint then the sand or sawdust was applied and then the helmet shells were heat dried at 200deg F. for one hour. A second coat was applied with a higher pigment content (Less durable but less reflective). The bottom photo shows the liners. Like I said in a previuos message all my US helmets have grey top liners and none of my British (which doesn't help to say the original Helmet is 100% British). The British Helmet is not the same as the top helmet. The top helmet is unissued but has the donut. I thought that since this one does not have the donut it would be more similar to the American Helmet. Also Chris P, the FS 8 technically does not refer to batch or lot. The British Helmet specification calls for the shell to be marked with manufacturers initials and heat number. So what is the difference between heat number and batch? (only a minor difference) Heat refers to all the steel put a through a single heating in any particular furnace. These could include several batches of steel, or lots of partcular steel. So the number can be used chrnologically for a manufactureer but does not refer to a particular lot of steel and more reflects the furnace usage. Joe Sweeney <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And another one! http://cgi.ebay.com/WWI-2nd-Division-paint...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 11 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2005 They keep turning up in the U.S.! http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-American-Helmet_W0...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 They keep turning up in the U.S.! http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-American-Helmet_W0...1QQcmdZViewItem <{POST_SNAPBACK}> These keep turning up in the USA because this is a 100% American made helmet (notice the domed rivets securing the chinstrap bales) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 11 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Kinda makes you think that the heavy sand finish might be an american thing, don't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Kinda makes you think that the heavy sand finish might be an american thing, don't it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dear Corkster You've obviously got a bee in your bonnet about this - and are making two assumptions: 1. eBay vendors know what they're talking about; and 2. Joe Sweeney, for instance, doesn't. In this context, the two things are obviously incompatible, but I'll tell you what: if my house depended on it, I'd believe Joe - a dealer in fact rather than supposition - rather than an eBay vendor everyday of the week. Best wishes, Grovetown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Well said Mr G. So far the links have all been US helmets turning up in the US (WOW)! Or all Brit ........... Nothing personal corkers, but I'd quit while you're behind! Joes information is based on written records & research, not grainy eBay pics.......... Incidentally, the buyer of the helmet that started all this was aware it was/maybe a US liner, & wanted it as such.......so all's well, that ends well. ChrisP. PS : Grovetown: You lucky, lucky b*****. You know what I mean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 11 October , 2005 Share Posted 11 October , 2005 PS : Grovetown: You lucky, lucky b*****. You know what I mean!Chris - do you mean the 'two piece'? If so, yes - quite amazing really. Best wishes, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 11 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2005 Hi Grovey, I am not trying to offend or upset anyone, especially not Joe, whose knowledge and expertise I have the greatest respect for , I have learned a lot from Joe, and long may it continue. But I feel that the question of the heavy sand finish , eg. an even sand coating applied on to the paint,and clearly visable as sand, and not sand under or with-in a painted finish, remains unclear to me. The explanation I seek is, Why did the vast majority of these helmets end up in the states, or at the very least quite a lot of them seem to end up in America. This is based on photographs and descriptions of helmets seen on U.S. ebay against the much smaller amount seen on UK ebay. I use ebay because I think it is a reasonable gauge of the respective markets, and this does lead me to suspect that some part of the U.S. military was using this finish, also a lot of these are U.S. manufacture. Is it a bad thing to question, instead of blindly accepting? I must stress that I refer to the photos, that clearly show this finish, not just the sellers description. All the best, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 12 October , 2005 Share Posted 12 October , 2005 I'll speak out in defense of Corkhead... I collect Canadian painted helmets. I have bought and sold many British and American made Brodie helmets and I have observed a variation finish that is similar to what corkhead initially asked about - ie a heavy SAND finish, (like cement). I have only seen this on helmets used by Americans. I think many US used helmets were repainted at some point and could easily have had a further application of sand or sawdust or whatever was handy before the unit marking was added. Likely this finish was applied at the unit level and not the factory. Furthermore, several of my Canadian helmets clearly have been repainted with SAWDUST added to the finish. ..Chris P's British made shell with US liner was something I hadn't noticed before but clearly there is room for further research... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 12 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2005 Hello John, Thanks for that. As you say, I think there is room for further research. Best regards, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 12 October , 2005 Share Posted 12 October , 2005 Hope no one got the impression that any kind of offense was taken. Debate is a very healthy thing amongst collector's and Chris's helmet sure did raise a bit of debate. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 12 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 October , 2005 It certainly did Joe, and I look forward to many more debates in the future. By the way, have you bought any nice tin hats lately? Best wishes, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 13 October , 2005 Share Posted 13 October , 2005 Malc, I've actually probably not bought a helmet in 10 to 15 years. I can actually remember that one. It was a rimless helmet (relined with MKI liner and Chin strap) with 13Bn CEF flash on it and I'd. Only one owner prior to family sell. take care, Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 14 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2005 Blimey!.......... wasn't expecting that! 10 to 15 years?! Probably time to take aleaf out of your book, I seem to buy all sorts of junk!! Best regards, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 22 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2005 http://cgi.ebay.com/U-S-Army-Doughboy-Helm...Z6570142561QQca http://cgi.ebay.com/WWI-US-m1917-sand-camo...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 29 October , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 October , 2005 http://cgi.ebay.com/World-War-I-WWI-Army-C...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-Brodie-Helmet...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 1 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2005 "The shell is 100% British. The liner could be? What maybe odd is the top lining apears to be grey wool. All my American Helmets have Grey Wool and none of my British." (post #7) This posed a question in my mind as to wether British liners were produced with grey lwool pads, the following link shows an all British helmet with red Brodie marking in the liner, and Grey felt dome pad. ...............just thought I'd share this. Malc. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 7 November , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2005 http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-M-1917-Helmet-wi...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Hello, this is my first post here and I'm a fairly new collector of military gear, although I have collected guns and knives for years. I found this thread while researching my WWI helmet. I believe it is also a British helmet, with the US-made liner by A.J. Bates, Webster, Massachussetts. It is marked "LS 18." I'm posting some photos of the helmet before I cleaned it up some, for any information you may have on it. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted 5 December , 2005 Share Posted 5 December , 2005 Here is the mark on the liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 11 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2005 Here is the mark on the liner. Hi, I'm sorry but my computor is out of action at the moment, should be back on line later this week, All the best, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted 18 December , 2005 Share Posted 18 December , 2005 Thank you, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkhead100 Posted 29 December , 2005 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2005 (edited) Thank you, Malc. Hi, sorry I haven't got back sooner, email me your postal address and I will send you a copy of Marcus Cotton's article ( a mine of information on British Brodies) Best regards Malc email...... malcnicholson@Wight365.net. Edited 29 December , 2005 by corkhead100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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