Brodie type helmet ID

[corkhead100]

Can anybody tell me if this heavy sand finish was adopted by the British and used on thier helmets, or is this only found on helmets worn by the 'Doughboys'

Regards Malc.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WW1-BRITISH-BRODIE-H...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Joe Sweeney]

Malc,

This is a British MKI helmet. Sand was adopted as part of an improvement decided at an 11 April 1916 conference held by the Ministry of Munitions at GHQ in France. This coating was stanadard on MKI helmets. There was no donut in the helmet liner until June 1917.

Joe Sweeney

[corkhead100]

Hi Joe,

When I first looked at this helmet I thought that the thick crust of sand

that covers the exterior was a finish that I have found to be quite common on M17 Doughboy helmets, I did not think that this finish was used by British troops. Am I wrong?

[Andrew Upton]

I was fairly certain when I first looked at this helmet that the whilst the shell is an original British made Brodie, the original British made liner appeared to have been replaced with an American liner (probably when the British liner was damaged in some way) - a quick Google search of "James Phelan and Sons" (the makers name on the inside of the liner) revealed a spot-on match - for an American Undertakers in the 19th century, which I think rather suggests that they were put to other work in WW1! It makes sense to say that the original, less textured, finish of the helmet was "upgraded" by the Americans at the same point that the liner was replaced.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:HTCGrOp...6+Sons%22&hl=en

[Grovetown]

Andrew: slight problem in that all refers to towns in Canada; although I'm sure someone could tell us if such Canadian businesses were involved in this kind of supply to the US.

According to Marcus Cotton, there were only two British manufacturers of British liners - the Army & Navy Co-Operative Society and, toward the end of the war, E. Day & Son.

While one must never say never, I have never seen a British maker-marked liner (excluding officers' private purchase). All the maker-marked liners I have seen - and never in association with the pink patent stamp - have been US.

I would have thought the presence of the pink stamp - an indisputable sign of a British liner - would have been mentioned if present.

I don't think this is even a replacement, but a British shell supplied to the US and fitted with its liner.

(I have had two British shell/ British liner Brodies to the US - ie with an American painted Div sign)

I would be happy to be corrected if I am mistaken myself.

The vendor is a useful contributor to the forum and, from his comments here in the past and having seen his buying and selling on eBay; I think he's simply made a genuine mistake on this one.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew: slight problem in that all refers to towns in Canada; although I'm sure someone could tell us if such Canadian businesses were involved in this kind of supply to the US...I don't think this is even a replacement, but a British shell supplied to the US and there fitted with its liner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoops to the first part - I just had a quick check of the rest of the page, and noted references to Pennsylvania, etc, and guessed at America!

It makes more sense to my mind to ship replacement parts from Canada to America, rather than from England to America, but I would then have thought that they would have received the Brodie stamp (being part of the Commonwealth), and we wouldn't be discussing this in the first place! Possibly "James Phelan and Sons" moved to America later on? or opened several stores worldwide? or ???

I don't think we ever shipped any "empty" shells to America - as I understand it, we shipped over 10,000 British made helmets, complete with liners, as an interim measure unto America could produce them for themselves, but this then raises the question as to what America did for "spares" for these 10,000 helmets until they produced their own components - did we ship spare parts for the helmets? I'd be interested to find out just what happened.

For my part, I still believe the liner in the helmet in question is simply a US made replacement for the original British liner, but I would love to know one way or the other for certain if we did supply any "empty" shells.

[Joe Sweeney]

The US purchased 400000 Helmets from Britain and these were shipped direct to France. A small number of complete helmets were shipped directly to the US as examples for manufacture (along with 4000 sheets of steel) and no need of spare parts.

The shell is 100% British. The liner could be? What maybe odd is the top lining apears to be grey wool. All my American Helmets have Grey Wool and none of my British.

10 Firms were employed in the manufacture of American Helmet linings. I only know the names of 4 of the 10. Leather Company oof America ,NY; Progressive Knitting Works, NY; Taylor Company, Buffalo NY: Curtain Supply Company of Chicago.

Are we sure that the liner is maker marked? Not too clear, If it is dated 1916 it is no way related to America unless the mark is to the American Cloth and not the liner.

American manufacture used saw dust and not sand.

I have several unissued type MKI's, one with paper still stuck to it and the sand is pretty heavy.

If this was lined or relined by Americans it will be very difficult to tell.

The Color in the photo is not clear enough to distinguish between the British Drab or American Olive Drab to see if it has been repainted.

If the helmet was recycled in the US from the miniscule amount of MKI sent to America I could not say, and I would doubt, but it would not be impossible. But trying to prove?

Joe Sweeney

[corkhead100]

Hello Andrew,

This is what I thought,

perhaps one of the batch of 400,000 British helmets

purchased by America in 1917, but if it was issued to the American Expeditionaey Forces,who were already in Europe, When would the

liner have been fitted? I assume that the 400,00 helmets supplied

would have been new , and fitted with British liners.

Therefore, perhaps this is a re-issued helmet, and the heavy sand

external finish was applied in the field.

Somebody must know if this type of finish was used by USA only,

or if it is common to other allied troops?

All the best, Malc.

[corkhead100]

Hello Joe,

I'm sorry but our postings seem to have crossed, I wrote mine prior

to reading yours.

My daughter has borrowed my camera, but when I get it back I will try to

post a picture of my Doughboy M17, marked ZE44. the liner was manufactured

by A J Bates, Webster, Mass. ( a shoe manufacturer )

I will try to show the sand/grit external coating.

Best regards, Malc.

The US purchased 400000 Helmets from Britain and these were shipped direct to France. A small number of complete helmets were shipped directly to the US as examples for manufacture (along with 4000 sheets of steel) and no need of spare parts.

The shell is 100% British. The liner could be? What maybe odd is the top lining apears to be grey wool. All my American Helmets have Grey Wool and none of my British.

10 Firms were employed in the manufacture of American Helmet linings.  I only know the names of  4 of the 10. Leather Company oof America ,NY; Progressive Knitting Works, NY; Taylor Company, Buffalo NY: Curtain Supply Company of Chicago.

Are we sure that the liner is maker marked? Not too clear, If it is dated 1916 it is no way related to America unless the mark is to the American Cloth and not the liner.

American manufacture used saw dust and not sand.

I have several unissued type MKI's, one with paper still stuck to it and the sand is pretty heavy.

If this was lined or relined by Americans it will be very difficult to tell.

The Color in the photo is not clear enough to distinguish between the British Drab or American Olive Drab to see if it has been repainted.

If the helmet was recycled in the US from the miniscule amount of MKI sent to America I could not say, and I would doubt, but it would not be impossible. But trying to prove?

Joe Sweeney

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Grovetown]

Gosh: this is getting complicated.

First I must clarify one of my earlier comments: when I referred to maker marked liners, the markings I have seen - which have always been American - have been on the cloth. I take what I think is Joe's point that this could refer to the origination of that material, rather than the assembly/ manufacture of the liner.

By manufacturers, I suppose we can break it down into stages:

1. The producer of the steel;

2. The producer of the shell (sometimes one and the same as the steel);

3. The producer of the liner (Army & Navy);

4. The producer of the complete helmet (Army & Navy; and possibly one and the same as 1 and 2 above).

We're all obviously clear that the steel/ shell is absolutely British.

It is my reading of Marcus's piece that the manfacturer of the liners was the Army & Navy Co-Operative Society (until Day became involved late on). He also refers to the A&N Co-Op as being responsible for fitting the liners, painting and crating the helmets. What is ambiguous is whether what he refers to as helmet manfacturers are also fitters of the A&N liners, or just shell producers.

Either way, James Phelan & Son don't figure in any of his references. Unless it is a manufacturer of American cloth (either domestically or imported into the UK for liner manufacture by the A&N Co-Op). The date is difficult, but I can't discern anything other than 19?? from the pix.

On reflection Andrew, you're right: it doesn't seem logical to ship shells to the States for them to fit their own liners.

Also: one can't see the US bringing in its own liners for helmet refurbishment in France, when the British are making millions of them only 10s of miles away.

Perhaps the best possible explanation is, as suggested by Andrew, is that was a British helmet that returned to the States whereupon it was refurbished with a new liner.

Alternatively, it may be British/ British; but I would be uncomfortable that it lacks, if it does, the Brodie pink stamp.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Chris P]

HI all.... Just had a read about my helmet. At least no one has had anything bad to say about me yet!

Thanks Grovetown, for your words.....Very tactful! I'll tell you why I think/thought it's Brit...

Shell is 100% Brit & early batch no. Sand finish, not sawdust. I always thought US helmets never used sand, & that seems to be backed up here.. (hello Joe)! Helmet only has one coat of paint., same inside as under the sand, & is British rather than US coloured..more yellowy, less green if that makes sense.....Date is clearly 1916.....not 18....we all look closely and can tell the difference after a good few years! That kind of ruled out US for me.......although there is no Brodie stamp; (I've seen more than a few Brit helmets without)..

I'm always receptive to any persuasion......but having read the postings above, am still none the wiser! ( I have, in fairness added a query to the listing stating opinion that liner could be US......so prospective buyers can decide for themselves).

I'm always willing to answer anything about anything I'm selling, so feel free to ask.

Chris P.

[Grovetown]

Hi Chris

Was wondering when you would show up! Not tactful as such, just don't think there's any suggestion you're behaving other than with absolute probity.

I can see where you're coming from - and saw that you'd added the query for clarity. As you say, we're not any the wiser for the debate - but worth having nonetheless and glad you're in it now.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Chris P]

Hi G! Pic of date stamp......

[Chris P]

Mind you......in that much detail it looks a bit sus! Can't see that sqiggly bit with the naked eye....

[Joe Sweeney]

Hello Chris P,

With about 30 Brit helmets (Brit, US and Canadian used) I can say only about 50% have any remains of the Patent or patent pending stamp.

Grovetown,

I've always read Cotton as there were two known manuafcturers of liners not that there were only two manufacturers. I think he is hedging his bets in case another inevitably surfaces (not saying this is the case in this instance).

By the way how'd the set turn out?

The only clear way of telling a US used Brit Helmet is either through insignia or provenance, other than that who can tell.

If this helmet is a Brit shell relined by Americans with an American liner it would be the first I've encountered--Chris you sure want to sell it?

I would hazard a guess that of the 400000 helmets complete bought by the US a significant percentage were refurbished before handover to the US. Almost half of the above helmets are ID'd to US personnel and most but not all are refurbished.

[Chris P]

Hi Joe.....I'm never sure I want to sell anything, but I've determined to have a clear out, & something has to go! It's a great helmet whatever it is, & there seems to be keen bidding. Luckily, I have a few other brodies !

I'm trying to collect recognised, regular examples of everything Brit, & this sort of didn't fit anyway.........

There is another very feint line of writing under the majkers name, which looks like Lyn*, M***, but it's open to interpretation, & I could be miles out. Mean anything to you?

Chris.

[corkhead100]

This is a photo of a sand finished helmet (bottom right) which I was comparing with the helmet in question. This helmet is 100% American, liner and shell, I had just naturally

assumed that the finish was as well.

It is a finish that I have only seen on American helmets on ebay.

Ihope that I have not offended Chris by questioning this, but I find it is very educational

Best regards to all, Malc.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/milit...view=t&.hires=t

[Grovetown]

Joe

I agree with you - my intepretation is too 'closed'. I very much try to not be dogmatic, and all points accepted.

(Set is awaiting me paying customs/ import duties at the Post Office. Should have it in my hot grubby hands in a day or two. I'll be in touch directly as and when).

Chris

Unhelpfully, it could be Lynn, Mass. Lynn is a town just north east of Boston.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[truthergw]

There is another very feint line of writing under the majkers name, which looks like Lyn*, M***, . Mean anything to you?

Chris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't suppose it could have belonged to Lynn MacDonald before she took up writing?

[Chris P]

To Malc..........Not offended......too thick skinned , & there's no reason to be! We all benefit from passing around ideas/ info.

Grovetown.......probably not the best answer......and I'm now 60 / 40 towards US made liner..... At least bidders have the info to make their mind up. And Joe has a new discovery!

As for Lynn Macdonald.....surely not! I already have Kitcheners cap, Churchills medals., & Lawrences Camel (It fought like b******y trying to get it through the letterbox)......All eBay bargains, of course.........

Chris P.

[corkhead100]

Hello Chris,

Very nice helmet, bidding going very well but too rich for me, I'm under

orders from my 'good lady' wife to limit the number of helmet sized box

deliveries, (they all know what it is when the postman calls)

"another tortoise for the spare room"

I still haven't got anywhere with the sand/grit finish.......British, American,

who knows? Surely somebody does.!!!

All the best.........

[corkhead100]

There's another one!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...mMakeTrack=true

[Chris P]

Ah.......but I'd bet my bottom dollar that it's a brit liner for sure! Go on..ask him if it has that little red stamp!

It's a matter of written fact, & not speculation, that Brit helmets used sand, & US were sawdust........I believe we can say with some certainty that Brit helmets never used sawdust also......I think the only speculation is whether it was relined in the US or not........ or maybe if the US used sand also.

I think.......!

Chris P.

[corkhead100]

Ah.......but I'd bet my bottom dollar that it's a brit liner for sure! Go on..ask him if it has that little red stamp!

It's a matter of written fact, & not speculation, that Brit helmets used sand, & US were sawdust........I believe we can say with some certainty that Brit helmets never used sawdust also......I think the only speculation is whether it was relined in the US or not........ or maybe if the US used sand also.

I think.......!

Chris P.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Chris,

I am not questioning any of these things, with the exception of the last statement.

'If the US used sand also'

The predominance of these heavily sanded helmets eminateing from the US ebay

surely begs the question, was this' type of finish' an american thing.

[Joe Sweeney]

Malc,

There is no question of whether the US used sand or not. The US did not use sand. The US used sawdust in all its manufacturing of helmets. The description of the manufactuting process and specification of US helmet still exist.

A book by Bashford Dean goes into quite a bit of detail on the process of coating the helmets.

Joe Sweeney