divisional patches

[manchester terrier]

The 42nd Division history shows the patches used, but doesnt say when or where they were first used. Could it have been Gallipoli, or on their entry into the Western Front? Does anyone know about the introduction of these battle patches? I've read the Osprey book on the subject and that hasnt got the info. What about the other divisions? Any info much appreciated.Cheers

[armourersergeant]

I too have looked in the relevant osprey book and it doesnt help other than to say that it was the territorial divisions that first arrived with the battle patches , something they seem to have devised as they had heard of the confusion up the line in identifying units in the fog of war. the divs already out there were busy with other matters it would appear. So it may be likely that it was done early on maybe before Gallipoli. I also have a players cigarette card but this does not give much info on the back to its origins etc

If you do not have an online image of it let me know and i will scan the cig card for you and the info on the back and post it to you.

As a general interest many of the cig cards give some indication as to why the image was chosen and if there are any others of interest to you let me know and i will see what they say

Good luck

Arm.

[AndrewThornton]

The units of 42nd Division appear to have adopted pugaree flashes on their arrival in Egypt/Sudan in the Autumn of 1914. The ones I can remember are those used by The Lancashire Fusiliers - a red vertical rectangle with the battalion number over a grenade over "LF", as depicted on the Player's cigarette card by Lance Cattermole; 1/7th Manchesters initially wore a plain khaki drill horizontal rectangle with "1st/7th" over a curved "MANCHESTER" embroidered on it, but I am not sure of the colour used, later replaced by a green "fleur-de-lys" design similar to the battalion's cap badge; and 1/10th Manchesters who wore a diamond halved white and red.

From what I can gather, the elaborate scheme used by 42nd Division was not worn at Gallipoli, but was certainly used in the latter stages of their service in Egypt prior to moving to France. I haven't come across any photos prior to 1917 that show the numbered diamond scheme in use.

[Arthur]

I do not ever recall seeing any signs being used prior to those that were used during world war one.

It is my theory that the formation badge was copied from the idea of the wearing the regimental strips that were being worn on the pugari of the khaki Foreign Service helmet! That is, with the exception, of the heraldry that was carried by the Medieval Knights.

John Player’s cigarette card series Uniforms of the Territorial Army show several examples of these flashes being worn on the left-hand side of the helmet. Although the bigger majority of these examples show soldiers from the period of 1914-18. However, there is one card that depicts a Lovat Scout, 1900 wearing a flash at the side of a khaki pugari.

But as I stated, this is my theory on the founding of the insignia and it will be interesting to know what other members think

Arthur

[AndrewThornton]

Arthur

Your theory about the origins of Great War insignia worn on uniform is one I subscribe to, as it would be a logical progression. Although there is evidence that some regiments wore pugaree flashes in the 1870's in India, the main reason for the widespread use of helmet flashes came about in the 1890's with the introduction of a standardised Khaki Drill uniform for foreign service in 1896, some sort of indentification was required in the absence of being able to distinguish a unit by facings (pre 1881 in the case of infantry, when these were standardised to four for the infantry - blue for royal regiments, white for English and Welsh line regiment, Yellow for Scots line units and Green for Irish units, although this only actually applied to the Connaught Rangers) or designations of shoulder straps as had been used in the past. The British infantry battalions serving in the Sudan in 1898 had a comprehensive system of patches, all of which were unique to the particular unit. During the Second Boer War, these flashes became even more prevailent and remained so afterwards. All aided in being able to make a more or less instant identification in the field.

[Arthur]

Apologies to Manchester Terrier and anybody else who were confused over my reply to Manchester Terrier’s query ‘Divisional Patches, When were they first used?’ The information that I supplied was meant for Kilty and his query ‘Divisional Signs, Battle Patches?’

I had read through the query at earlier period, and I could do nothing about answering it at that time. I returned to the site at a later time to answer the query with information that I had recorded on the word processor. Of course the rest is now history.

Andrew,

Thank you for the information, and as you will now be aware that my reply was in answer to the wrong query! Like yourself, I was aware that the ‘Pugaree Flash’ was worn a long time before the time of the example that I had given.

Arthur

[manchester terrier]

Chaps, what can I say? Other than, thank you. Plenty of food for thought and pointers. This was my first posting and you were very helpful.

Many thanks

Cheers, Manchester Terrier.